Election results bad news for Florida HSR

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Meanwhile japan and china and other country's laugh at our incompetence to build HSR.
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
 
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
Density might explain why some cities might have difficulty implementing efficient metro services, but how does density explain our near total lack of modern intercity services? The US used to be the preeminent passenger rail empire. Our major cities today have far larger populations than they did back then. Seems like intercity passenger rail with services and connections like airports currently provide would go a long way toward easing our worsening congestion and reducing our consumption of oil, both from foreign adversaries and from disaster-prone domestic sources.
 
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I keep seeing this density argument all over the place. While I'm not suggesting that we dismiss it outright, the density argument isn't as important as many opponents believe.

One need look no further than the new Lyncburger. Virginia estimated that 50,000 people would ride that train in the first year. Tiny Lynchburg, population 67,720, with help from several other small towns managed to hit that 50,000 mark just 6 months into the first year in March. By July, they had doubled the estimate with more than 100,000 rides taken.

They're doing so well that they haven't had to take 1 dime of the subsidy monies that the state set aside for the train. In fact, as of August, the train is actually showing a $2 Million profit with 1 month left in the year.
 
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
Density might explain why some cities might have difficulty implementing efficient metro services, but how does density explain our near total lack of modern intercity services? The US used to be the preeminent passenger rail empire. Our major cities today have far larger populations than they did back then. Seems like intercity passenger rail with services and connections like airports currently provide would go a long way toward easing our worsening congestion and reducing our consumption of oil, both from foreign adversaries and from disaster-prone domestic sources.
I totally agree with you. I just don't think HSR is the answer in most cases because it requires a completely new right of way and is hugely expensive to implement. There is no way it would ever be cost effective no matter how you compute the benefits. On the other hand that same amount of money spent upgrading our current network to higher standards and expanding capacity would go so much farther and do so much more to restore intercity passenger rail to where it was before Amtrak(or actually back to the 1960's). Our current situation is simply our government being enthralled with interstate highways and automobiles at the expense of all else. If you go at this little by little step by step you will eventually end up with your HSR, just not tomorrow. Once the public is used to using rail, they will gradually demand improvements until capacity is reached and HSR is feasible on a given route. Politicians react to public demand. You have to get the public on your side first.
 
Not sure why sheer density is necessarily the issue. The ICE, TGV, AVE etc. don't stop at every Hooterville, Porterdale and Small Town Europe and neither will[should] High Speed Rail in this country. If you have X people trying to get to point B, why not let them? Why does the equivalent of fly-over country matter for the train?
 
I keep seeing this density argument all over the place. While I'm not suggesting that we dismiss it outright, the density argument isn't as important as many opponents believe.

One need look no further than the new Lyncburger. Virginia estimated that 50,000 people would ride that train in the first year. Tiny Lynchburg, population 67,720, with help from several other small towns managed to hit that 50,000 mark just 6 months into the first year in March. By July, they had doubled the estimate with more than 100,000 rides taken.

They're doing so well that they haven't had to take 1 dime of the subsidy monies that the state set aside for the train. In fact, as of August, the train is actually showing a $2 Million profit with 1 month left in the year.
Yes Alan and the Lynchburger is conventional rail and really not that fast...but it's a success. That is what I am saying. HSR money is better spent on fixing up what we have first as in 'higher speed' rail and increased capacity. HSR will follow in good time. You have to get the public back on trains and used to using them. With the public on your side, politicians will fall in line.
 
Not sure why sheer density is necessarily the issue. The ICE, TGV, AVE etc. don't stop at every Hooterville, Porterdale and Small Town Europe and neither will[should] High Speed Rail in this country. If you have X people trying to get to point B, why not let them? Why does the equivalent of fly-over country matter for the train?
You have to look at the whole system in Europe to understand. There high speed trains are just part of the overall system. They get you between the major centers where you can transfer to local services. Here, for the most part, we don't yet even have local services. Yet we are trying to make a quantam leep from nothing to HSR overnight. I still think a gradual approach will work much better. Fix what we have first and HSR will follow. When you throw an HSR project in the publics face cold turkey they are just shocked at the cost. If you already have a system up and running and the public is used to using it they will be much more open to improving running times with HSR.
 
I keep seeing this density argument all over the place. While I'm not suggesting that we dismiss it outright, the density argument isn't as important as many opponents believe.

One need look no further than the new Lyncburger. Virginia estimated that 50,000 people would ride that train in the first year. Tiny Lynchburg, population 67,720, with help from several other small towns managed to hit that 50,000 mark just 6 months into the first year in March. By July, they had doubled the estimate with more than 100,000 rides taken.

They're doing so well that they haven't had to take 1 dime of the subsidy monies that the state set aside for the train. In fact, as of August, the train is actually showing a $2 Million profit with 1 month left in the year.
Yes Alan and the Lynchburger is conventional rail and really not that fast...but it's a success. That is what I am saying. HSR money is better spent on fixing up what we have first as in 'higher speed' rail and increased capacity. HSR will follow in good time. You have to get the public back on trains and used to using them. With the public on your side, politicians will fall in line.
No arguements here Henry. :)

Unfortunately though, we just lost two of those conventional lines that could have shown the truth to some of the naysayers. :(
 
Meanwhile japan and china and other country's laugh at our incompetence to build HSR.
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
They laugh. Believe me, they laugh. I laugh. I laugh so hard I break out in tears from it.

Here we are, the shell of what was once the most powerful and capable nation on earth, and we can't do anything.

Oh, we talk about doing stuff. We talk, we debate, we argue, we go through political promises of getting stuff done. We create logos to promote the idea of getting stuff done. We invent disorders to explain why people on the committee that were supposed to design that logo can't get their lazy arses out of bed.

But we don't get ANYTHING done. Our founding fathers were morons. They simply could not see that the basic idea of goodness, fairness, and intelligent decision making for the benefit of all is the kind of claptrap that sounds good in a B movie. People are too stupid, selfish, and self important to actually run their own government.

Well, we're running our government. Right onto the rocks. Old farts don't want to invest in the new generation. Auto drivers don't want to invest in public transportation. Companies don't want to invest in beneficial legislation because ruin their god given right to make too much money on the backs of workers.

Its a rat race. And you all are the rats running in it. Me? I'll stand by and watch. And laugh. And cry.
 
Meanwhile japan and china and other country's laugh at our incompetence to build HSR.
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
They laugh. Believe me, they laugh. I laugh. I laugh so hard I break out in tears from it.

Here we are, the shell of what was once the most powerful and capable nation on earth, and we can't do anything.

Oh, we talk about doing stuff. We talk, we debate, we argue, we go through political promises of getting stuff done. We create logos to promote the idea of getting stuff done. We invent disorders to explain why people on the committee that were supposed to design that logo can't get their lazy arses out of bed.

But we don't get ANYTHING done. Our founding fathers were morons. They simply could not see that the basic idea of goodness, fairness, and intelligent decision making for the benefit of all is the kind of claptrap that sounds good in a B movie. People are too stupid, selfish, and self important to actually run their own government.

Well, we're running our government. Right onto the rocks. Old farts don't want to invest in the new generation. Auto drivers don't want to invest in public transportation. Companies don't want to invest in beneficial legislation because ruin their god given right to make too much money on the backs of workers.

Its a rat race. And you all are the rats running in it. Me? I'll stand by and watch. And laugh. And cry.
Sieg Heil
 
The TP , put an Interesting map the other day....apparently the Wisconsin line just died aswell.

Results-and-Consequences.jpg


For Advocates of Alternative Transportation, A Difficult Election Day
 
Not sure why sheer density is necessarily the issue. The ICE, TGV, AVE etc. don't stop at every Hooterville, Porterdale and Small Town Europe and neither will[should] High Speed Rail in this country. If you have X people trying to get to point B, why not let them? Why does the equivalent of fly-over country matter for the train?
You have to look at the whole system in Europe to understand. There high speed trains are just part of the overall system. They get you between the major centers where you can transfer to local services. Here, for the most part, we don't yet even have local services. Yet we are trying to make a quantam leep from nothing to HSR overnight. I still think a gradual approach will work much better. Fix what we have first and HSR will follow. When you throw an HSR project in the publics face cold turkey they are just shocked at the cost. If you already have a system up and running and the public is used to using it they will be much more open to improving running times with HSR.
Well,that's what the now dead 3C train would have done.
 
Sieg Heil
Sigh. At least I expected a more intelligent response than that from you Henry :blink:

I think the real deep issue is that we have figured out a way of spending endless amounts of money on essentially non-productive activities, while we are progressively de-funding productive activities. Even if we remove HSR from the discussion we still see that even highway projects (or any other significant infrastructure project even upkeep of existing ones) are now starting to get defunded because there is no money, while we seem to be incapable of canceling completely pointless zillion dollar defence projects, even when the SecDef himself says it is pointless.HSR or not, that in itself should give us pause.
 
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Sieg Heil
Sigh. At least I expected a more intelligent response than that from you Henry :blink:

I think the real deep issue is that we have figured out a way of spending endless amounts of money on essentially non-productive activities, while we are progressively de-funding productive activities. Even if we remove HSR from the discussion we still see that even highway projects (or any other significant infrastructure project even upkeep of existing ones) are now starting to get defunded because there is no money, while we seem to be incapable of canceling completely pointless zillion dollar defence projects, even when the SecDef himself says it is pointless.HSR or not, that in itself should give us pause.
Well Jis I really didn't know how to respond to "our founding fathers were morons". Personally I think they did a good job. Perhaps we have just messed it up over time. If you want to open the discussion up beyond HSR, then you have to address global free trade and the loss of millions of jobs to China and other countries overseas. As a country we are dead broke. We don't even take in enought revenue to take care of our basic needs like social security, medicare, unemployment, etc. much less things like HSR. The military budget is not all that big and I really don't want to find myself in a country that has dropped to second or third best in defense as that would be catastrophic for the nation and the world. I am too old to learn Chinese or Russian. To fund all these nice things like the Europeans have we have to increase tax revenue. That means bringing jobs back into this country. No other country that I know of lets their basic industries leave without even putting up a fight and most require that to do business in their country you have to hire the local population. Other than some government contracts, we don't even do that. We have serious fundamental problems and I really don't hear any politician out there addressing them. Government by itself doesn't create wealth or jobs. Government just spends other people's money and right now there is not enough of it. Maybe we should give the job of policing the world to China or Russia. Certainly Europe is not prepared to take up the slack. Maybe there are those on here that think we can just bury our heads in the sand and play with our trains and no one will bother us. Personally I don't share that opinion. The world is an increasingly dangerous place.
 
The military budget is not all that big and I really don't want to find myself in a country that has dropped to second or third best in defense as that would be catastrophic for the nation and the world.
I really don't follow you. Isn't our military budget as large as the next dozen countries combined? Unless I'm mistaken that doesn't even cover the "alternative funding" bills used for our continuing mercenary misadventures in the Middle East. What rational adult can claim that's "not all that big?" It's a stupefyingly massive waste of resources we simply don't have!
 
The military budget is not all that big and I really don't want to find myself in a country that has dropped to second or third best in defense as that would be catastrophic for the nation and the world.
I really don't follow you. Isn't our military budget as large as the next dozen countries combined? Unless I'm mistaken that doesn't even cover the "alternative funding" bills used for our continuing mercenary misadventures in the Middle East. What rational adult can claim that's "not all that big?" It's a stupefyingly massive waste of resources we simply don't have!
Here is a link, you can read it for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget

I don't consider it a stupefyingly massive waste of resources unless of course you don't care who you might have to bow down to in the future. The defense budget is 663.7 billion and social security is 677 billion. All mandatory spending is 2.2 trillion. Estimated total receipts is 2.4 trillion. So you see, after all the social programs are taken care of there is only around 200 billion left to divide up. Defense is listed under discretionary spending. Total budget is 3.5 trillion so we are in the hole about 1.1 trillion for 2010. I already get social security and medicare both of which I paid for all my life so I am against cutting that. You young people are the ones that have to decide what you want for your future. If you think it's ok for the US to be a second rate power and there will be no consequences to that then more power to you. I don't plan to be around that long. lol. You might get your trains....but they may be chinese. What languages are you studying? I only speak English. Personally I think we should cut 'other mandatory programs' 571 billion and then start eliminating some of those worthless departments listed under discretionary spending.
 
Military spending accounts for about half of all discretionary spending. I'd say that means it is in fact quite big. Defense spending could be reduced significantly and it would still be quite high compared to any other nation. And to suggest that cuts in military spending will result in Americans having to learn Chinese or Russian is an almost laughably ridiculous exaggeration of any effect it might have.
 
I don't consider it a stupefyingly massive waste of resources unless of course you don't care who you might have to bow down to in the future.
Let's take a look at that, shall we?

Who in the top 18 of that list do you see us having to defend against? We spend as much money as 2-18 on that list. As a sailor for 7 years now employed as a defense contractor, I know for a fact that we spend money on the military like a drunken frat boy, and much of it is completely unnecessary.

I already get social security and medicare both of which I paid for all my life so I am against cutting that.
In other words, "screw you guys, I got mine". Looks like GML was right.
Answer me this, Henry - you said yourself we're in the hole 1.1 trillion and posted a link to the Federal budget. Go ahead and make a list of the "worthless departments" and how much their budgets are, and show us how we can close that hole.
 
Sieg Heil
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that there are only two forms of government: deadlocked representative democracy and militant fascism?

Functional governments, complete with checks and balances, careful distribution of power, and so on can be set up in such a way that the stupid selfishness of human nature can't easily derail it.

Well Jis I really didn't know how to respond to "our founding fathers were morons". Personally I think they did a good job. Perhaps we have just messed it up over time. If you want to open the discussion up beyond HSR, then you have to address global free trade and the loss of millions of jobs to China and other countries overseas. As a country we are dead broke. We don't even take in enought revenue to take care of our basic needs like social security, medicare, unemployment, etc. much less things like HSR. The military budget is not all that big and I really don't want to find myself in a country that has dropped to second or third best in defense as that would be catastrophic for the nation and the world. I am too old to learn Chinese or Russian. To fund all these nice things like the Europeans have we have to increase tax revenue. That means bringing jobs back into this country. No other country that I know of lets their basic industries leave without even putting up a fight and most require that to do business in their country you have to hire the local population. Other than some government contracts, we don't even do that. We have serious fundamental problems and I really don't hear any politician out there addressing them. Government by itself doesn't create wealth or jobs. Government just spends other people's money and right now there is not enough of it. Maybe we should give the job of policing the world to China or Russia. Certainly Europe is not prepared to take up the slack. Maybe there are those on here that think we can just bury our heads in the sand and play with our trains and no one will bother us. Personally I don't share that opinion. The world is an increasingly dangerous place.
I don't think there is anything wrong with our government that a more intelligent, less selfish citizenship couldn't fix.

Among the many scrappy little things I do in pursuit of making a living is finding perfectly good items people throw away and selling it to other people at a low, low price that is, for me, almost 100% profit. You believe in the free market economy? Well I'm in the flea market economy, and doing pretty well in it, thank you.

The other day I found a most lovely couch, made out of beautifully woven fabric. When it was new, it most have cost its owner well north of $1000. Currently, it was filthy, but cleanable. I brought it with me, along with many other things, and proceeded to attempt to hock it at the flea market. I started out with a price of $100. By the end of the day, I had it priced at $5, then put a sign on it saying that they had but to come and take it home with them.

I have no use for such a couch, so I left it there figuring someone else would come running and throw it in their truck. A few hours later, I got an annoyed call from the manager asking me to come and remove my couch. This beautiful couch, a most lovely object, was simply too much trouble and aggravation for anyone to want to take it home.

Likewise, our country is a mares nest of rotten, selfish people, demanding of too much and giving too little. Lazy, inept, arrogant, and generally cantankerous, our country is populated by a ton of problems and hassles. No other country in the world wants to take us over. If they won us without a shot fired, it would still be the most pyrrhic victory of all.

Our government spends way too much money on way too much nonsense, none of which really has to do with any project we undertake, per se, but all of the red tape surrounding it. Forget pointless projects. Get rid of all the studies we perform on whether projects are pointless or pointful, or just plain senatorial pissing contests, and we'd be a good percentage of the way to more efficient government.

Inspectors must inspect swiss cheese in this country, not for quality, or disease, or spoilage, but for the number and size of holes in the cheese. I rest my case.

Our government is defacto defunct. Our economy is a text book example of chaos theory. As Jishnu put it, we spend far too much of our time working on pointless nonsense, while eliminating all high-profile progress to show how much we are tightening our belts.
 
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Sieg Heil
Sigh. At least I expected a more intelligent response than that from you Henry :blink:

I think the real deep issue is that we have figured out a way of spending endless amounts of money on essentially non-productive activities, while we are progressively de-funding productive activities. Even if we remove HSR from the discussion we still see that even highway projects (or any other significant infrastructure project even upkeep of existing ones) are now starting to get defunded because there is no money, while we seem to be incapable of canceling completely pointless zillion dollar defense projects, even when the SecDef himself says it is pointless. HSR or not, that in itself should give us pause.
Well Jis I really didn't know how to respond to "our founding fathers were morons".
I would just point out that you are imagining things. I did not say anything about any of the founding fathers or the structure of the constitution with its checks and balances, which I still think is brilliant. I don't think there is a problem with the basic principles. I think there is a problem with the stewards of that inheritance, namely us and our utterly selfish attitudes towards fellow human beings, and completely cynical approach to collective activities of any sort based on the principle that anything that anyone can get away with, without any consideration for collective good is par for the course. Now if diverting attention to founding fathers helps some remove that guilt from ourselves..... so be it..... and.. well I rest my case. :)
 
Meanwhile japan and china and other country's laugh at our incompetence to build HSR.
I seriously doubt if they are laughing. We just don't have the population density to support it. Pretty much the NEC is it in this country. Japan and Europe are small and very compact regions with population centers close together. The US is huge by comparison and for the most part sparsely populated. HSR is just not cost effective. It's a huge boondoggle. Money would be better spent on conventional 'higher speed' rail.
They laugh. Believe me, they laugh. I laugh. I laugh so hard I break out in tears from it.

Here we are, the shell of what was once the most powerful and capable nation on earth, and we can't do anything.

Oh, we talk about doing stuff. We talk, we debate, we argue, we go through political promises of getting stuff done. We create logos to promote the idea of getting stuff done. We invent disorders to explain why people on the committee that were supposed to design that logo can't get their lazy arses out of bed.

But we don't get ANYTHING done. Our founding fathers were morons. They simply could not see that the basic idea of goodness, fairness, and intelligent decision making for the benefit of all is the kind of claptrap that sounds good in a B movie. People are too stupid, selfish, and self important to actually run their own government.

Well, we're running our government. Right onto the rocks. Old farts don't want to invest in the new generation. Auto drivers don't want to invest in public transportation. Companies don't want to invest in beneficial legislation because ruin their god given right to make too much money on the backs of workers.

Its a rat race. And you all are the rats running in it. Me? I'll stand by and watch. And laugh. And cry.
Sieg Heil
This reply is distasteful, disgusting and completely inappropriate. Save it for your KKK rally.
 
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