37 replies to this topic

[MattW]

I was looking at Rich Green's great track maps of Metro North railroad, specifically Grand Central Terminal and had a few questions:
1. Are the loop tracks that swing around the terminal used in regular service?
2. Where do the Metro North trains go for maintenance? I know maintenance doesn't have to be done at the terminating station, but that's typically the arrangement such as Penn having Sunnyside and West Side on either end, or WAS having the Ivy City complex, or Chicago having its huge yard area.

As an afterthought, I also have a question about Penn Station: are any of the "layup" tracks on the west end of the yard used? (The ones labeled 1C-10C, 1E-6E, and 1A-5A including the mail platform tracks)

Thanks for any info!

[jis]

I was looking at Rich Green's great track maps of Metro North railroad, specifically Grand Central Terminal and had a few questions:
1. Are the loop tracks that swing around the terminal used in regular service?

Not with passengers on board, but they are used, or at least were used until very recent past for moving empties.

2. Where do the Metro North trains go for maintenance? I know maintenance doesn't have to be done at the terminating station, but that's typically the arrangement such as Penn having Sunnyside and West Side on either end, or WAS having the Ivy City complex, or Chicago having its huge yard area.

Highbridge Yard, just off of the Hudson Line on the banks of Harlem River, which I believe is used for midday storage and light repair. The major repair shop is in Croton-Harmon.

As an afterthought, I also have a question about Penn Station: are any of the "layup" tracks on the west end of the yard used? (The ones labeled 1C-10C, 1E-6E, and 1A-5A including the mail platform tracks)

AFAICT all tracks are used for storage of something or the other, though I have not seen the diagonal platform tracks used for anything of late.

Edited by jis, 21 March 2010 - 01:22 PM.

[AlanB]

1) The loop tracks are never used in revenue service, but they do get used for equipment moves. Hence only engineers ever get to see the tracks. I'm not positive, but I seem to think that I saw something that said that their use had been curtailed some during the building of the LIRR station. IIRC, the entire east end yard is now gone or at least unusable during the construction project.

2) All diesels go to Croton-Harom shops for anything other than simple basic maintenance. Prior to the start of prep work for the LIRR's East Side access, pretty much all maintenance on trains was done at shops at the northern ends of the various lines. I'm not sure if I've got them all, but there are shops at Croton-Harmon, Stamford, New Haven, North White Plains, and Brewster.

As part of the LIRR's ESA project, a new yard for Metro North was built just north of Manhattan in the Bronx on the Hudson line. Highbridge Yard, seen on those maps just after the Hudson line splits from the main trunk into GCT, has shops that can handle much of the needed work that a car might need. Highbridge opened in 2003.

Finally to your last question, yes most of those tracks at Penn do get used during the day. NJT parks several trains on the southern side, while the LIRR uses the northern tracks to help turn trains. I'm not sure if the LIRR just parks morning trains on their tracks till the evening rush, or if they just use them to turn trains and send them back out. However, NJT typically leaves several trains just sitting there all day until the evening rush.

One track on the southern side generally has a P42 rescue engine sitting there and it's not uncomon to also see an AEM-7 sitting there for rescue purposes too.

[Dutchrailnut]

The loop tracks on upper level are very much in use specialy to yard trains to yard near lexington Ave.
yes they are used to loop out passenger(with passengers) trains too, but just in emergencies like track blockage or a no good north end on a train.
The lower level loops are all out of service, as the west side of GCT lower level will be the terminal area waiting room and ticket area for LIRR's ESA.
The ESA train tracks and platforms will be way below the lower level of GCT.

Edited by Dutchrailnut, 21 March 2010 - 05:27 PM.

[Dutchrailnut]

A more detailed answer to question two:

Stamford and New Haven shops perform catenary work and heavy locomotive repair on the New Haven Line.

No MNCR locomotive repairs on New Haven line other than lightbulb changes and brakeshoes, only locomotives maintained in New Haven are the SLE locomotives in CDOT shop.

[WinNix]

I know that the upper level loop tracks used to drop passengers off at an area that led directly to the street on Madison and 43rd but did the lower level also allow access straight to the street? And I've read mixed things about when the upper level loop went into service. Anyone know?

As long as I've been alive, I've not known the upper loops to accept or drop off passengers - it must have been long ago. Now, the only passenger access to the tracks from within GCT are the platforms. From the doors leading to the upper tracks -> south, there is no public access to the tracks; there is just no space. From the lower tracks within GCT, there is no public access to the loop-trackage area anymore that I know of. I have looked. **NOTE** The antique elevators that are still in use adjascent to the massive pedestrian ramps (western ramp) do sidle up beside some tracks. I am not sure, but I think those tracks are the loops... again, I am not sure. The elevators are located west of the oyster bar on either side of the western pedestrian ramp. Of the two banks (north, south), the southern elevator bank backs up to the tracks I am referencing. The tracks are not platformed which is what is making me guess they are the loops.... (?). IF they ever let off passengers, I'd guess those elevators and or the western ped ramp was the only place that could have logistically happened. From below the Eastern ped ramp and south is the beginning of the subway station. I suppose it is possible MNR trains let passengers off into the subway.... but if they did, then that would allow them to bypass all the turnstiles so that is unlikely (perhaps they redid the layout??).

Across the hall from the top of the western pedestrian ramp is a large rite-aid pharmacy. Between the two rite-aid entrances is an employees-only steel door. Every now and then the door will be open with employees in or around it. A set of stairs leading down at least two stories are clearly visible when the door is open. The stairwell wall is painted with "STAIRWELL B". In addition, inside the doors there are metal signs that state "do not enter" and "employees only". I once stopped and asked one of the workers what was down there. They just stared at me with a "why are you bothering me" look... I kept walking. Before I piped up, they had been talking about a vaccum train and garbage trucks.

[Dutchrailnut]

arrival on tracks 38 to 42 is part of loop, they are only tracks continouing south with passenger platforms on upper level.

as for stairs near Rite-Aid there use to be locker rooms and bunk rooms for crews, but now its track department and third rail department.

Edited by Dutchrailnut, 11 November 2011 - 07:45 AM.

[Anderson]

I noticed on at least one map an indication that the tunnels seem to continue south of GCT. Was this a slightly sloppy map (always possible), or do the tunnels go on for a few more blocks? Also (*ducks*), how do these tracks compare, level-wise, with the crosstown line that runs through Penn?

[AlanB]

I'm not sure what you were looking at, but no Metro North tracks extend south of 42nd Street. The aforementioned loop tracks get the closest to 42nd, but they do not even get under 42nd even by a tiny bit.

Now if you were looking at plans for the new LIRR station at GCT, those tracks do have tail tracks that extend south of 42nd Street. IIRC, they'll be able to store 1 train on each of the 8 tracks south of the station.

Otherwise the only other thing that I can think of that you were seeing is the Lexington Avenue subway line, which transitions from Lexington to Park at Grand Central.

[Anderson]

Alan,
Thanks. It was probably either a sloppy map or an indication of the LIRR "storage tracks". With that said, is there some way that "tail tracks" could be added south of GCT? I'm guessing not (given the placement of the passenger terminals), but it's worth asking, storage-wise. LIkewise, could some setup be put into place to "dump" trains arriving/departing on the side-tracks to clear those tracks during rush hour?

[AlanB]

With that said, is there some way that "tail tracks" could be added south of GCT? I'm guessing not (given the placement of the passenger terminals), but it's worth asking, storage-wise.

Not a chance. First you'd have to run through the passenger concourse, a huge problem in its own right. Then you'd have to cut through the loop tracks rendering them useless. Next you have to fight your way through all the infrastructure under 42nd Street, namely water, electrical, steam, the Lexington Avenue Subway, the #7 Subway, and the Times Square Shuttle.

And then after fighting your way through all of that, at least some of the tail tracks would end up in the basements of the buildings across the street from Grand Central, something that they wouldn't take kindly to assuming that it was even possible to cut into them without bringing down the buildings.

Perhaps this drawing of the upper level tracks will help to provide some idea of the layout. Now what you can't see is that the tracks on the end (top of picture closest to Madison Ave.) that access the loop start to dip down as they approach the terminal so as to duck under the concourse.

Here's the diagram for the lower level tracks.

LIkewise, could some setup be put into place to "dump" trains arriving/departing on the side-tracks to clear those tracks during rush hour?

I'm not sure that I fully understand what you're asking me, but during rush hour they put trains on pretty much every track.

[Anderson]

Alright, that removes the possibility of going south. I had figured there was a reason for that, and (having been there last weekend) I figured the concourse was in the way southbound. Two questions from the map:

1) I see that a lot of tracks seem to cut at 44th street. Are these on the other level?
2) Looking at the track map, could anything be extended north so as to allow trains to be "stashed" there? i.e. Could tracks on the sides be pushed further north (say, to 50th/51st street) to allow trains to be pulled forward into the terminal, offload passengers, and then once the tracks "to the side" of them are more or less full, "back up" the trains onto those tracks and store them there, thereby freeing the tracks to take another inbound train? For example, track X is occupied by a 7:00 AM train from CT. The train sits there until 7:30 and is then "backed out" of the terminal track and onto an added track on its side of the station? Likewise, could the tracks be reworked to allow trains to be "stashed" on the sidings between 48th and 50th streets?

[jis]

Alright, that removes the possibility of going south. I had figured there was a reason for that, and (having been there last weekend) I figured the concourse was in the way southbound. Two questions from the map:

1) I see that a lot of tracks seem to cut at 44th street. Are these on the other level?
2) Looking at the track map, could anything be extended north so as to allow trains to be "stashed" there? i.e. Could tracks on the sides be pushed further north (say, to 50th/51st street) to allow trains to be pulled forward into the terminal, offload passengers, and then once the tracks "to the side" of them are more or less full, "back up" the trains onto those tracks and store them there, thereby freeing the tracks to take another inbound train? For example, track X is occupied by a 7:00 AM train from CT. The train sits there until 7:30 and is then "backed out" of the terminal track and onto an added track on its side of the station? Likewise, could the tracks be reworked to allow trains to be "stashed" on the sidings between 48th and 50th streets?

1. Yes.
2. no

[AlanB]

1) I see that a lot of tracks seem to cut at 44th street. Are these on the other level?

Which diagram are you looking at? The upper or the lower? And what exactly do you mean by "cut"?

2) Looking at the track map, could anything be extended north so as to allow trains to be "stashed" there? i.e. Could tracks on the sides be pushed further north (say, to 50th/51st street) to allow trains to be pulled forward into the terminal, offload passengers, and then once the tracks "to the side" of them are more or less full, "back up" the trains onto those tracks and store them there, thereby freeing the tracks to take another inbound train? For example, track X is occupied by a 7:00 AM train from CT. The train sits there until 7:30 and is then "backed out" of the terminal track and onto an added track on its side of the station? Likewise, could the tracks be reworked to allow trains to be "stashed" on the sidings between 48th and 50th streets?

I don't have any actual information to say conclusively, but I'd imagine that you'd run into basements of buildings if you tried to extend tracks north. It's a well publicized fact that a couple of the tracks on the bottom of the diagram provide direct access to basement of the Waldorf-Astoria hotel. And that's not a particularly tall building that would need a deeper basement to support the structure overhead.

Even if it is possible, it would be very expensive to do.

[Anderson]

1) I see that a lot of tracks seem to cut at 44th street. Are these on the other level?

Which diagram are you looking at? The upper or the lower? And what exactly do you mean by "cut"?

2) Looking at the track map, could anything be extended north so as to allow trains to be "stashed" there? i.e. Could tracks on the sides be pushed further north (say, to 50th/51st street) to allow trains to be pulled forward into the terminal, offload passengers, and then once the tracks "to the side" of them are more or less full, "back up" the trains onto those tracks and store them there, thereby freeing the tracks to take another inbound train? For example, track X is occupied by a 7:00 AM train from CT. The train sits there until 7:30 and is then "backed out" of the terminal track and onto an added track on its side of the station? Likewise, could the tracks be reworked to allow trains to be "stashed" on the sidings between 48th and 50th streets?

I don't have any actual information to say conclusively, but I'd imagine that you'd run into basements of buildings if you tried to extend tracks north. It's a well publicized fact that a couple of the tracks on the bottom of the diagram provide direct access to basement of the Waldorf-Astoria hotel. And that's not a particularly tall building that would need a deeper basement to support the structure overhead.

Even if it is possible, it would be very expensive to do.

1) On the lower track plan (RailUS_GCT-lowerTracksPlan.gif), lower side of the map (I believe that translates into the east side of the station), there are about ten or so tracks that come to an (apparent) abrupt end at 44th street, well short of the concourse.

2) The point is well taken on that. I'm naturally assuming that nothing is cheap in NYC (heck, even a movie ticket can go for almost $20 at the right theater), but the point is taken. As I wondered, though, on the east side there appears to be a bank of siding tracks to the north side of the GCT yard. Could part of the yard be re-worked and that be used to stash 10 or 20 trains? I'm counting what seems to be at least a dozen tracks there, so even if you had to make a switching mess out of one part of the trackage or another, I'd think the added capacity (say, 15 commuter trains per day at peak, or about a 25% increase) would be worth it.

[jis]

2) The point is well taken on that. I'm naturally assuming that nothing is cheap in NYC (heck, even a movie ticket can go for almost $20 at the right theater), but the point is taken. As I wondered, though, on the east side there appears to be a bank of siding tracks to the north side of the GCT yard. Could part of the yard be re-worked and that be used to stash 10 or 20 trains? I'm counting what seems to be at least a dozen tracks there, so even if you had to make a switching mess out of one part of the trackage or another, I'd think the added capacity (say, 15 commuter trains per day at peak, or about a 25% increase) would be worth it.

If that made financial sense MNRR would have done that instead of building the Highbridge Yard.

[WinNix]

Although I've walked around the lower eastern portion of GCT many times, it has been awhile. I'll try to go off memory and double check my statements next week when I go in. One important factor to note on those maps - neither show the existing 59th street utility/emergency station. You can just see the southern tip of the platform on the upper level map. In the event of any type of disaster at GCT and/or the northern end of the tunnel, 59th street has platforms can be used. Filthy and littered with debris? You bet! But they are functional. Extending the branch-outs further north would eliminate this option entirely ALONG with the other folks' aforementioned issues (basements, etc). The space you would use for siding is simply already claimed and used by other people/buildings/utilities/the city itself, and roads. Don't forget the tracks are not buried the whole way. I'll further my thoughts in #2....

1) The doorways and platforms for the lower/eastern tracks are "recessed" a bit further north. The layout makes sense when you consider the grand staircases, highly efficient use of pedestrian & commercial floorspace, etc. If memory serves me (not always these days), the main reason for the ending the lower eastern tracks at 44th was the existing subway station *immediately* south on the eastern edge of GCT's lower level. At first glance it may not appear to overlap if you look at the 42nd street 4/5/6 train station, but it has a ton of pedestrian floor space AND the northbound train platforms have to extend fairly far. I suspect the room to even out all the lower tracks simply did not exist because it was already claimed by the IRT.

2) By one comment you made, it appears you are trying to brainstorm methods for increasing rush hour capacity. A noble effort, but track/platform space is not the main bottle neck. There are two other issues you need to solve. First, three lines of one of the busiest commuter rail come into/out of GCT on (realistically) 3 tracks with 1 reserved for the other direction of course. The number of tracks is just one of the two main bottleneck problems. The other is... wait, look at both those maps again. The trackage between 85th street through to the end of each platform has a max speed limit of 5 or 10 mph. This is, without any doubt, entirely the fault of MNRR. The signals used are ancient. Many are bent over and hard to see. The wires for them are exposed and laying on the ground. On top of that, the switching equipment is old. Obviously, there is such a huge mass of switches. It really makes me irritated when I hear MNRR claim they are near capacity when they can resolve one of the factors forming that capacity ceiling. If they revamped the switches & signals to have a higher speed limit than 5 mph, imagine the flow increase! I know there are counter arguments to what I just said. Previously, someone said the trains must go slower to prevent wear & tear on the switches. Well, All the MUs from the latest generation are between 15-25% lighter than the older MUs. Less weight means less wear means less concern over breaking the switches... If MNRR let the trains move faster through the switches between 85th and 50th, then you'll see an increase in capacity.

edit: Grammar.

Edited by WinNix, 23 November 2011 - 10:44 AM.

[Anderson]

To the Grand Central bit:
-That is a good observation about the track speed limit. I know there had been mention of it being slow, but...there's slow and there's slow. A 30 MPH (or even 20 MPH) slow order on a section is one thing, but 5-10 MPH is another item entirely. On top of it being bad enough, fixing that would whack a good bit of time off of commute times (since unless I miss my guess, they're stuck at such a low speed for a mile or more...30-40 blocks, even short ones in Manhattan, is still going to add up). Even getting up to 30 MPH would do wonders for that, and I can see there being other restrictions that would limit that.
-Also, I'm wondering if they could find some way to hike the limit on "non-revenue" trains to 15 MPH or so. Even if they just blocked off a slot and "blew out" a bunch of trains at once in as tight of a block as signaling and dispatching would allow and "dropped them off" in a yard somewhere, my understanding is that the rules tend to be a bit looser for non-revenue trains as long as track conditions will allow.