193 replies to this topic

[GG-1]

Aloha

As most know Florida is not my home state. We have A northern route cross Country, A central route cross country. Several North South routes forming a grid (almost). There are only 2 states that have unique situations preventing a rail alternative transportation. So why are are the South East States provided Sub Standard Service.

Shame on us but How many years will it take to truly unite this country.

I will get off the soapbox now
Mahalo
Eric

[AlanB]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Has anyone shown us current rider statistics for the SL east of San Antonio? And for that matter... current sleeper occupancy?

No. And I cannot, as Amtrak does not provide that level of detail in their public stats. I've no doubt that Amtrak could tell us if they choose to, but I've not seen that data released. Only conclusions can be drawn about how much revenue is generated east of SAS, by looking at the numbers from when Katrina afffected service. The worst lost occured during the 6 months that the Sunset terminated in SAS, because all revenue was lost from there to Orlando.

Once New Orleans was restored as an end point, the numbers did come back up, but not to pre-Katrina levels. That to me indicates that half the sleeper income was generated by Orlando to San Antonio, and perhaps 1/2 to 2/3rds was generated by the Orlando to New Orleans leg, with the remainder going to New Orleans - San Antonio.

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak's own numbers prove that the train lost far more money per passenger when it ran to Florida.

Exactly the point I'm making.

Waiting for the wrecks to be done makes things no different than this current plan. One can still run the Sunset daily NOL-LAX, and send the City east of NOL. Drop the through cars off the Eagle 1and Amtrak might even be able to run the Sunset daily to Orlando without new cars.

Numbers clearly indicate that the through sleeper on the Texas Eagle is one of the most profitable cars in the entire system. Lets get rid of this to restore service to a white elephant. Brilliant idea there, Alan.

You also are completely ignoring a cardinal point- pun intended. The Cardinal was extended from Washington to New York, and its ridership went up. Ok. Lets assume that all things being equal, a one seat ride will attract riders. I'd even agree with that. But this does not provide proof that expansion of all trains on that group of routes, and restoration of service to all cities previously served, will not improve ridership as much as reverting back to the previous set up.

In otherwords: all things being equal, a single seat ride would probably improve ridership. But this does not indicate that daily trains with a three seat ride would provide less of an improvement in ridership then a single seat ride theoretically would. We don't know that.

Yes we do. Just look at the airlines. People are willing to pay a premium for a one seat ride.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? We have no numbers to verify that maintaining a one seat ride provides more revenue then going daily. None whatsoever. This hasn't been done before.

Since I don't have the stats from those years I can't tell you. However, there is no point anyhow, since neither changed the level of services being offered, other than perhaps the Cardinal's dropping a family room and a real diner eventually. But the Eagle changed nothing but frequency. We're not talking about that here, we're talking about both a frequency and a service change. So no comparisons can be drawn. as you have two variables in play in this case.

You're avoiding the hard questions again. Enough of this, I'm seeing red from the puerile tomfoolery I am getting in response to my points.

[AlanB]

Amtrak's own numbers prove that the train lost far more money per passenger when it ran to Florida.

Exactly the point I'm making.

My apologies it was late.

Amtrak's own numbers prove that the train lost far less money per passenger when it ran to Florida.

Waiting for the wrecks to be done makes things no different than this current plan. One can still run the Sunset daily NOL-LAX, and send the City east of NOL. Drop the through cars off the Eagle 1and Amtrak might even be able to run the Sunset daily to Orlando without new cars.

Numbers clearly indicate that the through sleeper on the Texas Eagle is one of the most profitable cars in the entire system. Lets get rid of this to restore service to a white elephant. Brilliant idea there, Alan.

First, I've seen no such numbers.

Second, I wasn't saying that it was a good idea, just that it might make it possible to run the train daily all the way.

You also are completely ignoring a cardinal point- pun intended. The Cardinal was extended from Washington to New York, and its ridership went up. Ok. Lets assume that all things being equal, a one seat ride will attract riders. I'd even agree with that. But this does not provide proof that expansion of all trains on that group of routes, and restoration of service to all cities previously served, will not improve ridership as much as reverting back to the previous set up.

In otherwords: all things being equal, a single seat ride would probably improve ridership. But this does not indicate that daily trains with a three seat ride would provide less of an improvement in ridership then a single seat ride theoretically would. We don't know that.

Yes we do. Just look at the airlines. People are willing to pay a premium for a one seat ride.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? We have no numbers to verify that maintaining a one seat ride provides more revenue then going daily. None whatsoever. This hasn't been done before.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? If more people will ride because of a one seat ride and if more people will pay a premium because of a one seat ride, then it stands to reason that more revenue will be generated than just going daily. Especially when one is eliminating the very cars that produce the most revenue.

Since I don't have the stats from those years I can't tell you. However, there is no point anyhow, since neither changed the level of services being offered, other than perhaps the Cardinal's dropping a family room and a real diner eventually. But the Eagle changed nothing but frequency. We're not talking about that here, we're talking about both a frequency and a service change. So no comparisons can be drawn. as you have two variables in play in this case.

You're avoiding the hard questions again. Enough of this, I'm seeing red from the puerile tomfoolery I am getting in response to my points.

I'm not avoiding any questions, hard or otherwise. I'm not going to sit here and tell you which train saw a greater improvement when I don't know. The Eagles change occured before Amtrak started releasing stats, and IIRC, the Cardinal's change happened just as Amtrak started releasing stats. Would you prefer that I make something up and lie to you? Talk about tomfoolery!

Additionally the Eagle made the change in two steps, going from 3 to 4 days, then to 7.

And again, both of those trains change only one thing each. The plan that we're discussing will change two things, one of which has no comparison to either the Eagle's going daily or the Cardinal lengthening it's run to include a bigger market in a one seat ride package.

[NativeSon5859]

Continuing my thought process here....

It's a shame that some people have made this such a divisive issue. Florida vs. Texas, from what it seems. IMO, the people in FLA have a right to be P.O'd, as they've had their only train serving the panhandle region taken away from them. And the charade over the past four years had probably not left a very good taste in the mouths of the communities along the former NOL-JAX route. So really, you can't blame them. I'm not from FLA yet I'm still in disbelief as to the fast one that Amtrak pulled on those communities. If the same thing was to happen to Texas, I'm sure some of the folks there would be a little agitated, and rightfully so. Sad part is, and I agree with Alan here, once the stub train gets going, it sure seems like it'd be a lot easier for that train to get the axe...and that would leave Houston, one hell of a large city, with no rail service. Of course it's not guaranteed that scenario would happen, but anything's possible with Amtrak.

The Sunset Limited has operated NOL-LAX since 1894. That's a one-seat ride since 1894. Pretty impressive when you think about it. The Florida extension was started with much fanfare in '93...and it was something that Amtrak was very proud of at the time. My how times have changed. It troubles me to some extent that no better option has been found than to chop up the route yet again. I noticed on a previous thread that many Amtrak managers don't have much in the way of secondary education...well, it sure shows, in this case. I'm just being honest, if the stub train is the best they can do, it doesn't say much for the people making the route planning decisions.

I suppose I better take one last ride on the REAL Sunset Limited before it becomes a shell of its former self.

[AlanB]

It's a shame that some people have made this such a divisive issue. Florida vs. Texas, from what it seems.

Even more interesting is that I'm not from Florida and I'm not trying to make this about Florida. Yes, I won't deny that it would be nice to see service restored to Florida. But my main point here is that I still believe that Amtrak can do better than this current plan, much better.

It may mean waiting another 6 or even 9 months, but I for one will continue to believe until someone can show me the numbers, that Texas doesn't have to settle for sloppy seconds. I think that the equipment would be there to run a daily Sunset Limited from New Orleans through to LAX without downgrading the service to coach only. And I firmly believe that Amtrak will produce far more revenue by running a daily, full service Sunset Limited instead of this shell.

Why anyone would want to settle for that is beyond me.

[ALC_Rail_Writer]

Equip. issues aside for the moment:

What about a daily Superliner from JAX/ORL/MIA to SAS? Wouldn't that fill both gaps?

[AlanB]

Yes it would, but Amtrak doesn't have the equipment for that I'm pretty sure. That would require Superliner 3's in order to pull off.

[TVRM610]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

[AlanB]

While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

No, the Pennsy never had sleepers and a diner. The Three Rivers did, but not the Pennsy. And actually it's run was more like 18 hours IIRC. It left NY around 6:00 AM or so and was scheduled into Chicago at like 11:30 PM. But then this train was never intended to actually be used by passengers going that distance. Amtrak extended the Pennsy to haul freight, and hoped that in the process maybe a few people might ride it between mid-point stations. And actually quite a few people did do just that.

[NativeSon5859]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

[TVRM610]

While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

No, the Pennsy never had sleepers and a diner. The Three Rivers did, but not the Pennsy. And actually it's run was more like 18 hours IIRC. It left NY around 6:00 AM or so and was scheduled into Chicago at like 11:30 PM. But then this train was never intended to actually be used by passengers going that distance. Amtrak extended the Pennsy to haul freight, and hoped that in the process maybe a few people might ride it between mid-point stations. And actually quite a few people did do just that.

I meant the current run is around 10 hours.... or maybe closer to 9. NYP-Pittsburgh.

[TVRM610]

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

Well that's the thing, we don't KNOW that is so shortsighted... it may be the beginning of a long ambitious plan that will eventually include through sleepers from LAX-MIA! We really don't know yet. I agree like Alan says maybe there should be a little bit more info about this out, but perhaps they are waiting until the January Equipment Announcement to make any more info known.

Now I agree that this decision COULD be shortsighted, but that is something we just don't know yet.

[Heading North]

I don't recall the Three Rivers ever having a diner, although it did run with sleepers on occasion (some refurbished Heritage sleepers for a brief period, and maybe a Viewliner?)... when I rode it in coach in 2004, there was just half a cafe car available, and an announcement made that there were a handful of dinner seats for sleeper passengers "left over" that we could purchase for $16.

It was a no-frills train, but it still got me to Chicago...

[haolerider]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

Remember, what seems to be shortsighted to you may be just the perfect solution to someone else. I doubt if Amtrak management cares much about your secondary education comment and I don't know what kind of business you are in, but the one thing everyone needs to remember is that on forums such as this, all it takes is a computer, connection and the ability to hit a few keys and you can become an instant expert! Isn't technology great?

[Green Maned Lion]

The 4th largest state Florida lose's a LD train and second largest state Texas will drop from two LD trains to one. Yet many
here see that as progress.

And I also agree that the SA-NOL stub will get the axe after 3-4 years or a major wreck requiring superliner replacements.

You're paying no attention to the overall plan. First of all, the "Texas Sunrise" is a long-distance train and should have a CCC. So Texas isn't losing anything- it is gaining an additional train 4 days a week. The second phase of this plan, which would happen 6 months to a year after this, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to either Orlando or Miami. So Florida gets its train back, as well.

What I haven't been discussing is Amtraks intention either order some Superliner 3 cars or to order long-distance diner/lounge, coach, and sleeper cars based on the midwest corridor cars. It was indicated to me that one of those sleepers (which is not a Superliner, and may be all roomette with a single H-room) and perhaps a coach will become a through operation connecting to the Texas Sunrise and eventually the City of Miami, should they be delivered.

You guys are concentrating on losing the Sunset Limited. What Amtrak is doing is entirely reconfiguring its midwestern long distance trains and its southern transcon route. This is a huge operation, and it is going to take time. The first stage of this plan, which as I said, is not a foregone conclusion, is extending the Texas Eagle to LAX daily and replacing the Sunset with a day train between San Antonio and New Orleans. Stage two, which if this does happen has about an 85% chance of happening, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to Florida. Stage three, which if both state one and state two happen has about a 50% chance of happening, is the implementation of through cars.

[NativeSon5859]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

Remember, what seems to be shortsighted to you may be just the perfect solution to someone else. I doubt if Amtrak management cares much about your secondary education comment and I don't know what kind of business you are in, but the one thing everyone needs to remember is that on forums such as this, all it takes is a computer, connection and the ability to hit a few keys and you can become an instant expert! Isn't technology great?

I know they could care less about what I have to say (hence the nil response to numerous letters over the past few years to various people within the company regarding the whole Sunset East issue), so it's no skin off my back to say what I think...just like what everyone else is doing here. Heck I could be dead wrong...I've been wrong before. I'm not too proud to admit that. I'm in the transportation business, for the record, and my area of expertise, for what it's worth, is the New Orleans/Gulf Coast region. And yes technology is great!

[Rail Freak]

Keep it going guys, this is good reading!

DITTO !!!
RF

[wayman]

What I haven't been discussing is Amtraks intention either order some Superliner 3 cars or to order long-distance diner/lounge, coach, and sleeper cars based on the midwest corridor cars. It was indicated to me that one of those sleepers (which is not a Superliner, and may be all roomette with a single H-room) and perhaps a coach will become a through operation connecting to the Texas Sunrise and eventually the City of Miami, should they be delivered.

You guys are concentrating on losing the Sunset Limited. What Amtrak is doing is entirely reconfiguring its midwestern long distance trains and its southern transcon route. This is a huge operation, and it is going to take time. The first stage of this plan, which as I said, is not a foregone conclusion, is extending the Texas Eagle to LAX daily and replacing the Sunset with a day train between San Antonio and New Orleans. Stage two, which if this does happen has about an 85% chance of happening, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to Florida. Stage three, which if both state one and state two happen has about a 50% chance of happening, is the implementation of through cars.

I share GML's hope that there is a multi-stage plan which will ultimately incorporate through-cars (and specifically, a through-sleeper).

I share AlanB's concern that Amtrak has not been very good about explaining their rationale for the plans we've heard about their upcoming production of Fiddler On The Roof ("Sunrise, Sunset"...), which means I'm probably not as optimistic about the through-sleeper's chances as GML (who already points out it's far from a sure thing).

Perhaps the "big announcement in January" will give us news about this.

Or perhaps not.

But until then, all we can do is continue to speculate, which while fascinating doesn't actually lead to us having more information than we did before.

Still, I've got to say, this Sunset thread has been a lot more informative and, by-and-large, non-inflammatory than many previous ones. Go us!

Edited by wayman, 15 December 2009 - 02:24 PM.