37 replies to this topic

[GG-1]

Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?

I assume it included subways.

Wouldn't it make sense to actually bother to read the article before making assumptions on what it says?

It does not include subway counts. it does count all X trains though, and documents everything in great detail. Do read it. It is very informative, even for those railfans who think they know it all

Additionally you get a completely authentic track diagram spanning all the way from Secaucus Junction to Harold as displayed in PSCC in the lead page picture of PSCC.

I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy

Aloha

If you have a Barns and Nobel, they carry Trains, but the Honolulu store usually only bring in 5 copies.

[MrFSS]

Did that train count include the subways, or just Amtrak/NJT ?

I assume it included subways.

Wouldn't it make sense to actually bother to read the article before making assumptions on what it says?

It does not include subway counts. it does count all X trains though, and documents everything in great detail. Do read it. It is very informative, even for those railfans who think they know it all

Additionally you get a completely authentic track diagram spanning all the way from Secaucus Junction to Harold as displayed in PSCC in the lead page picture of PSCC.

I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy

Aloha

If you have a Barns and Nobel, they carry Trains, but the Honolulu store usually only bring in 5 copies.

See this link for subscription info.

[Neil_M]

I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy

I will buy you one in my local branch of WH Smiths, in Richmond, West London,England, UK,Europe and mail it to you!

Edited by Neil_M, 30 November 2009 - 05:34 PM.

[Neil_M]

Not a lot, short of knock it down and start again. It is what it is.
Somewhere like Berlin Hbf manages 1800 trains a day and still manages to look fetching.

Yes, but it has way more than 6 tracks feeding it. Doing 1800 trains with the kind of unconstrained flow that is available at Berlin Hbf is not a challenge at all. The challenge in NYP is that it is rife with conflict points and clearly has insufficient capacity in the 6 tracks that connect into it. That is what makes the traffic that is carried through NYP an amazing feat.

Finding the kind of real estate space that Berlin Hbf occupies in Manhattan could be a rather challenging venture, legally, financially and socially.

Oh yeah, all very fair points, but places like Berlin just prove that very busy stations don't have to be the unsavoury dump that Penn is. Just a pity that Grand Central is not the main station in New York, and Penn was the commuter bahnhof....

[ALC_Rail_Writer]

I don't get Trains, nor know how to obtain a copy

I will buy you one in my local branch of WH Smiths, in Richmond, West London,England, UK,Europe and mail it to you!

As much as I thank you for the offer, I wouldn't trouble somebody for the postage from the East Coast, much less from across the pond.

[Neil_M]

As much as I thank you for the offer, I wouldn't trouble somebody for the postage from the East Coast, much less from across the pond.

Just surprised that I can pick up a copy of Trains very easily and you have never had any dealings with it.

[AlanB]

Not a lot, short of knock it down and start again. It is what it is.
Somewhere like Berlin Hbf manages 1800 trains a day and still manages to look fetching.

Yes, but it has way more than 6 tracks feeding it. Doing 1800 trains with the kind of unconstrained flow that is available at Berlin Hbf is not a challenge at all. The challenge in NYP is that it is rife with conflict points and clearly has insufficient capacity in the 6 tracks that connect into it. That is what makes the traffic that is carried through NYP an amazing feat.

Finding the kind of real estate space that Berlin Hbf occupies in Manhattan could be a rather challenging venture, legally, financially and socially.

Oh yeah, all very fair points, but places like Berlin just prove that very busy stations don't have to be the unsavoury dump that Penn is. Just a pity that Grand Central is not the main station in New York, and Penn was the commuter bahnhof....

GCT still holds its own believe it or not. On average it sees 755 trains a day or an average of 31 an hour with only 4 throat tracks and no run through trains.

Coincidentally there was just a recent article on GCT entitled The Zoo That Is Grand Central, at Full Gallop.

[nashscan]

To me, Penn station is beautiful. All the urban grit, the mysterious caverns and passageways, and the raw energy contained underneath low celings is awsome. I'd take it anyday over an open sterile European style station.

[jimhudson]

I love the grandeur of GCT and wish I had got to see the old NYP before it was torn down in the 60's. However, I am anxious to see what they do with NYP when it moves across the street to the old post office building. I really hope they turn the new NYP into a majestic station like GCT when it moves. It will also be interesting to see how the new rail tunnel from NJ affects traffic into/out of NYP when that is completed.

I think we all agree however being New York it will probably cost Billions to finish up the conversion, just hope they do a first rate job which sometimes happens in spite of the system being geared to cost cutting/bribes/changes to the contract etc. Mostly political influence causes this but also there are unions involved so it's a crap shot! I hope to live long enough to see it finished and functioning, I am 65!

Edited by jimhudson, 27 December 2009 - 05:06 PM.

[jis]

I love the grandeur of GCT and wish I had got to see the old NYP before it was torn down in the 60's. However, I am anxious to see what they do with NYP when it moves across the street to the old post office building. I really hope they turn the new NYP into a majestic station like GCT when it moves. It will also be interesting to see how the new rail tunnel from NJ affects traffic into/out of NYP when that is completed.

NYP isn't moving anywhere. It will stay put where it is. A new concourse may be developed in the Post Office building across 8th Ave. There will be next to zero impact on that from the new 170 feet deep NY Penn Station Extension attached to the new tunnels. NYPSE will be two street and one avenue block horizontally and 170' vertically away from the Moynihan Concourse.

[Green Maned Lion]

Not to mention that the new tunnels are not physically connected to Penn Station itself and thus can't be used by any kind of Amtrak through service in the event of a failure of one of the current tunnels.

[Long Train Runnin']

Yesterday, I went to visit it the post office building, and am wondering where they plan on putting the concourse. The doors closest to Penn Station led to a working post office. Granted it was relatively small when you consider the size the building, but I can't see USPS just packing up and leaving. Also I was curious about how they plan to attach the new concourse to the current tracks. I'm guessing you would have to walk through another subterranean passage way and up a flight of stairs?

Thanks.

[AlanB]

Part of the agreement sees the USPS packing up and leaving that area plus part of the area behind the windows. The USPS will retain the back half of the building or the 9th Avenue side last I knew, while the 8th Avenue side will go over to the train station.

As for how to connect to the tracks, that's easy. If the floor of the post office were to collapse tomorrow, it would land on the platforms and tracks. So all they need to do is makes some holes in the floor and install escalators. Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue. All other platforms reach under 8th Avenue and under the current post office. The platforms for tracks 9 through 14 almost reach 9th Avenue. Just to give you some perspective, when you see daylight and sky right before going into the tunnels to NJ, you're between 9th & 10th Avenues.

[Shanghai]

Alan, I'm a bit confused by your above comment relative to tracks 1 to 4. Perhaps the platforms do not extend to 8th Avenue, but
the tracks must. Many of the NJT trains arrive and depart from tracks 1 to 4 and they must cross 8th Avenue and westward.
I always thought all of the Farley Post Office sat atop the tracks for Penn Station.

[AlanB]

Shanghai,

I didn't say that tracks 1-4 didn't extend past 8th Avenue. I said:

Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue.

And yes, Farley sit on top of all tracks that serve Penn. In fact Farely even sits on top of the small yard that NJT uses for feed some of the tracks at Penn that you see to your left as you leave Penn and head for the tunnels.

[jis]

Shanghai,

I didn't say that tracks 1-4 didn't extend past 8th Avenue. I said:

Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue.

And yes, Farley sit on top of all tracks that serve Penn. In fact Farely even sits on top of the small yard that NJT uses for feed some of the tracks at Penn that you see to your left as you leave Penn and head for the tunnels.

The A Yard, the C Yard and the Diagonal Platform all sit under Farley. There has been some talk of converting the Diagonal platform into a usable passenger platform too. The ladder tracks to tracks 1-4 pass under Farley. According to plans, Farley will be connected to tracks 1-4 using pedestrian walkways suspended above the ladder tracks and the yards too.

[AlanB]

Shanghai,

I didn't say that tracks 1-4 didn't extend past 8th Avenue. I said:

Only the platforms for tracks 1 through 4 do not extend under 8th Avenue.

And yes, Farley sit on top of all tracks that serve Penn. In fact Farely even sits on top of the small yard that NJT uses for feed some of the tracks at Penn that you see to your left as you leave Penn and head for the tunnels.

The A Yard, the C Yard and the Diagonal Platform all sit under Farley. There has been some talk of converting the Diagonal platform into a usable passenger platform too. The ladder tracks to tracks 1-4 pass under Farley. According to plans, Farley will be connected to tracks 1-4 using pedestrian walkways suspended above the ladder tracks and the yards too.

Of course with NJT now out of the picture for Farley, there is really little need to connect those 2 platforms to Farely since it's rare that Amtrak would ever use one of those dead end tracks.