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How to boost Cardinal Ridership?


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#41 wayman

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 09:46 PM

Secondly, we could more honestly rename the Cardinal the Senator Byrd Special, since that is what it is. Amtrak doesn't want to run this train! This train is unpopular, serves practically nobody and those it serves are served at ridiculous hours of the day. Its like going from New York to Chicago via the Greenbriar. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is!


Ya gotta admit, though, that Cardinal is a very appropriate name just the same: the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia!

The train serves limited purpose. Amtrak would be better served by killing this train, yanking a sleeper off the Silver Meteor, and bringing back a two-sleeper, diner-lite, cafe, 5 coach Broadway Limited. That's how I'd improve its ridership- make it relevant.


Well, Senator Byrd is old. So maybe in the next few years Congress could sensibly make a change like this, once West Virginia no longer has an elder statesman in the Senate.

Edited by wayman, 11 January 2009 - 09:46 PM.

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#42 access bob

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 10:22 PM

Secondly, we could more honestly rename the Cardinal the Senator Byrd Special, since that is what it is. Amtrak doesn't want to run this train! This train is unpopular, serves practically nobody and those it serves are served at ridiculous hours of the day. Its like going from New York to Chicago via the Greenbriar. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is!


Ya gotta admit, though, that Cardinal is a very appropriate name just the same: the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia!

The train serves limited purpose. Amtrak would be better served by killing this train, yanking a sleeper off the Silver Meteor, and bringing back a two-sleeper, diner-lite, cafe, 5 coach Broadway Limited. That's how I'd improve its ridership- make it relevant.


Well, Senator Byrd is old. So maybe in the next few years Congress could sensibly make a change like this, once West Virginia no longer has an elder statesman in the Senate.



I've ridden durn near everything Amtrak has (or had) and the Cardinal is the hardest train I ever had to get a ticket for, so someone must be riding the train.

it also is a route with great potential, maybe has the best scenery in the East. and it is the only train currently serving Cinn and Indy so it is an important placeholder if nothing else.

PS I like the idea of the Was and NYC sections.

Bob

#43 Philzy

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:40 PM

So, I like the idea of bringing back the superliners but obviously there probably is not enough equipment. What if schedule was alternated with BOTH amfleet AND superliner car sets? On the days that there is currently no service operate with a superliner set? Obviously the superliner set would not be able to operate past WAS but that would provide daily service to many cities that otherwise only receive 3 times a week service.
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#44 AlanB

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:58 PM

So, I like the idea of bringing back the superliners but obviously there probably is not enough equipment. What if schedule was alternated with BOTH amfleet AND superliner car sets? On the days that there is currently no service operate with a superliner set? Obviously the superliner set would not be able to operate past WAS but that would provide daily service to many cities that otherwise only receive 3 times a week service.


That would be far too confusing for both the passengers and Amtrak, especially to the point of which days do you have more roomettes and bedrooms to sell. If they setup two different trains, meaning different names and numbers, that would solve the confusion on Amtrak's side, but it still wouldn't help all that much with the passenger confusion.

And I'm also not sure that it would make for the most efficient use of the Superliner equipment, assuming that there is even enough to do that.
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#45 Joel N. Weber II

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:55 PM

So, I like the idea of bringing back the superliners but obviously there probably is not enough equipment. What if schedule was alternated with BOTH amfleet AND superliner car sets? On the days that there is currently no service operate with a superliner set? Obviously the superliner set would not be able to operate past WAS but that would provide daily service to many cities that otherwise only receive 3 times a week service.


I think if you wanted to keep single level equipment on the current Cardinal schedule and add Superliner equipment on the days the Cardinal doesn't run, you'd end up needing more total trainsets than if you make the Cardinal a daily train with identical trainsets each day.

#46 Philzy

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:22 PM

You're probably right...

I worked in the airline industry for the past few 10 years so I'm used to downsizing and upgauging aircraft to meet needs... there probably would be more complications with two different types of train sets than there would be with subsituting aircraft types.
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#47 ScottC4746

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:55 PM

According to Wikipedia here is the history of the route.
The Cardinal is the successor of several previous trains.

The James Whitcomb Riley was introduced by the New York Central on April 28, 1941 as a daytime, all-coach train between Chicago and Cincinnati by way of Indianapolis. It was named after the Hoosier poet James Whitcomb Riley, known for his celebration of Americana. The Riley was retained by the Penn Central (as trains 303 and 304) after its formation from the ruins of the New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad. Independently, the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway operated the George Washington as its flagship service (C&O trains 1 and 2), running between Cincinnati and Washington, with a section (trains 41 and 42) splitting at Charlottesville and running to Newport News.

Amtrak, upon its 1971 commencement of operations, kept service identical at first. Through Washington-Chicago and Newport News-Chicago coaches began operating July 12, and a through sleeping car began September 8. With the November 14, 1971 schedule, the routes were merged, with the George Washington name being applied eastbound and the James Whitcomb Riley westbound. At the same time the route was extended from Washington to Boston, and was assigned train numbers 50 eastbound and 51 westbound.

On March 6, 1972 the train was rerouted from Chicago's Central Station into Union Station. On April 30 the service was truncated back to Washington from Boston. On May 19, 1974 the George Washington was renamed the James Whitcomb Riley, giving it the same name in both directions. The Newport News section was discontinued June 14, 1976 and the Colonial began running over its former route east of Richmond.

The James Whitcomb Riley was renamed the Cardinal on October 30, 1977, as the cardinal was the state bird of all six states through which it ran. It was discontinued September 30, 1981 (by then having been extended to New York from Washington) and brought back by Congressional mandate on January 8, 1982.


[edit] Train consist
In the early 1990s, the Cardinal ran with the usual Amtrak long-distance consist of 2 F40s/E60 plus several MHC and material handling baggage cars, followed by several Amfleet coaches, an Amfleet lounge, a Heritage diner, 2 or 3 Heritage 10-6 sleepers, a slumbercoach, and finally, a baggage dormitory car. Following the delivery of the Superliner II fleet, however, the Cardinal was re-equipped with Superliner cars in the mid-nineties. As a result, its route was truncated to end in Washington D.C. as the Superliner equipment could not run into Penn Station, New York, due to low clearances there. With the Superliner equipment, the consist would usually be 2 Superliner II sleeping cars, a diner, a Sightseer Lounge, a baggage coach, and a coach.

In 2002, 2 derailments on other routes took numerous Superliner cars out of service. Because of these accidents, insufficient Superliner equipment was available for use on the Cardinal. The Cardinal was re-equipped with a consist of single level long distance cars, including dining, lounge, sleeping and dormitory cars. Fleet shortages since then have shortened the Cardinal further, and at one point, the train was running with two or three Amfleet II coaches and a lounge car. While the sleeping car has been restored, the Cardinal has not had a dormitory car or a diner since. The Cardinal is currently runs with a single engine, three or four Amfleet II long-distance coaches, a single car used as both a diner and a lounge, and a single Viewliner, used as both a crew dormitory and a sleeper.

#48 Joel N. Weber II

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:21 PM

I worked in the airline industry for the past few 10 years so I'm used to downsizing and upgauging aircraft to meet needs... there probably would be more complications with two different types of train sets than there would be with subsituting aircraft types.


The key issue is probably that the typical Amtrak long distance trainset's round trip probably takes at least two days, whereas an airplane on a domestic route can easily do at least one round trip every day, and two round trips in one day might even be somewhat common.

Commuter trains operating weekend / midday service typically don't bother to subtract coaches for off-peak runs because of the labor costs of doing the switching.

#49 JackieTakestheTrain

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:09 PM

FYI:

My husband received a survey in the *snailmail* from Amtrak about his recent trip between NYP and CIN on the Cardinal. Most of the questions, which asked for responses via a scale from "Very Dissatisified to Very Satisfied*, asked about quality issues with food, service and the sleeping cars.

He filled it out with input from me since no one asked my opinion and I was the one who made the reservation!

Did anyone else receive a survey?

-- Jackie

#50 MrFSS

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:32 PM

FYI:

My husband received a survey in the *snailmail* from Amtrak about his recent trip between NYP and CIN on the Cardinal. Most of the questions, which asked for responses via a scale from "Very Dissatisified to Very Satisfied*, asked about quality issues with food, service and the sleeping cars.

He filled it out with input from me since no one asked my opinion and I was the one who made the reservation!

Did anyone else receive a survey?

-- Jackie


What were his/your answers?

#51 jis

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 01:42 PM

PS I like the idea of the Was and NYC sections.

I like the idea of the NYC section too, except that I think it should be a part of the Capitol Limited, splitting off at Pittsburgh, and not the Cardinal.

#52 JackieTakestheTrain

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:07 PM

MrFSS:

Note that the survey only asked for our NYP to CIN portion of our trip -- not the return, which I thought was kind of odd.

Anyway, in general, our responses were extremely favorable for the train service, schedule and our attendants. Everything was ontime, our bedroom was excellent and our sleeping attendants were surpreme. I even liked the ClubAcela lounge at NYP.

Low marks went to everything related to public restrooms and food:

-- Occasionally, one of us would use the public restroom if the other was using the bathroom in the bedroom. The public restroom was very disgusting the later into the evening it got. There were just a piles of dirty towels overflowing out of the container and the floor smelled.

-- Food. We had breakfast, lunch and dinner on the NYP to CIN trip. Don't even get me started on this one. They ran out of food and the only thing that made it tolerable was that the dining car attendant was working her tushie off trying to make things pleasant with what she had to work with in her psuedo-kitchen, which wasn't much!

And while the survey only asked for the NYP to CIN portion of the trip, I felt compelled to write about the CIN to BOS portion (with a sleeper to NYP), thus forcing me to create my own worse than "very dissatisified" category on the survey. The food and the dining attendant were horrible on the CIN to NYP segment. As I entered the dining car, I waited for the dining car attendant to acknowledge me. When he did, he shouted at me to sit down. Before I had a chance to say anything, he tossed a menu at me and said he would wait on me *after* everyone else. I said no problem. Then, when he came over to my table and I showed him my ticket stub, he colored up and said he hadn't realized that I was a sleeping car passenger! I smiled and thought "Buddy, that is too late for your tip." but I didn't say a word...
He gave similarly bad service later in the day. In fact, it was so bad that our sleeping car attendant came and served the first-class passenger because the dining car attendant was so bad! I think my husband and I weren't the only ones to complain.

In a nutshell, you do not get what you pay for on the Cardinal with regard to food. If they run out of food, they should permit first-class passengers to have some type of credit toward use in the Cafe Car. I am sure there are 5,000 reasons why they can't (won't) do this, but honestly, when you have been on a train for 18 hours and you are hungry and you have paid for first-class service and food, someone ought to feed you!!

And if you are a person with special dietary needs, forget about it eating in the Cardinal.

I miss the old dining car on the old Cardinal -- the food was fantastic!!!!!!! Even if they could bring back the food at 1/2 the quality of the old dining car, it would still be 1,000 times better than what I had recently on the Cardinal.

-- Jackie







FYI:

My husband received a survey in the *snailmail* from Amtrak about his recent trip between NYP and CIN on the Cardinal. Most of the questions, which asked for responses via a scale from "Very Dissatisified to Very Satisfied*, asked about quality issues with food, service and the sleeping cars.

He filled it out with input from me since no one asked my opinion and I was the one who made the reservation!

Did anyone else receive a survey?

-- Jackie


What were his/your answers?



#53 The Cardinal

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:10 PM

Secondly, we could more honestly rename the Cardinal the Senator Byrd Special, since that is what it is. Amtrak doesn't want to run this train! This train is unpopular, serves practically nobody and those it serves are served at ridiculous hours of the day. Its like going from New York to Chicago via the Greenbriar. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is!


Ya gotta admit, though, that Cardinal is a very appropriate name just the same: the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia!

The train serves limited purpose. Amtrak would be better served by killing this train, yanking a sleeper off the Silver Meteor, and bringing back a two-sleeper, diner-lite, cafe, 5 coach Broadway Limited. That's how I'd improve its ridership- make it relevant.


Well, Senator Byrd is old. So maybe in the next few years Congress could sensibly make a change like this, once West Virginia no longer has an elder statesman in the Senate.



I've ridden durn near everything Amtrak has (or had) and the Cardinal is the hardest train I ever had to get a ticket for, so someone must be riding the train.



Absolutely. Every time in the past 5 years that I have ridden the Cardinal to from CHI to CIN and back, it has been a full train.

#54 MrFSS

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 04:25 PM

Note that the survey only asked for our NYP to CIN portion of our trip -- not the return, which I thought was kind of odd.

Anyway, in general, our responses were extremely favorable for the train service, schedule and our attendants. Everything was on time, our bedroom was excellent and our sleeping attendants were supreme. I even liked the ClubAcela lounge at NYP.

Low marks went to everything related to public restrooms and food:

-- Occasionally, one of us would use the public restroom if the other was using the bathroom in the bedroom. The public restroom was very disgusting the later into the evening it got. There were just a piles of dirty towels overflowing out of the container and the floor smelled.

-- Food. We had breakfast, lunch and dinner on the NYP to CIN trip. Don't even get me started on this one. They ran out of food and the only thing that made it tolerable was that the dining car attendant was working her tushie off trying to make things pleasant with what she had to work with in her pseudo-kitchen, which wasn't much!

And while the survey only asked for the NYP to CIN portion of the trip, I felt compelled to write about the CIN to BOS portion (with a sleeper to NYP), thus forcing me to create my own worse than "very dissatisfied" category on the survey. The food and the dining attendant were horrible on the CIN to NYP segment. As I entered the dining car, I waited for the dining car attendant to acknowledge me. When he did, he shouted at me to sit down. Before I had a chance to say anything, he tossed a menu at me and said he would wait on me *after* everyone else. I said no problem. Then, when he came over to my table and I showed him my ticket stub, he colored up and said he hadn't realized that I was a sleeping car passenger! I smiled and thought "Buddy, that is too late for your tip." but I didn't say a word...
He gave similarly bad service later in the day. In fact, it was so bad that our sleeping car attendant came and served the first-class passenger because the dining car attendant was so bad! I think my husband and I weren't the only ones to complain.

In a nutshell, you do not get what you pay for on the Cardinal with regard to food. If they run out of food, they should permit first-class passengers to have some type of credit toward use in the Café Car. I am sure there are 5,000 reasons why they can't (won't) do this, but honestly, when you have been on a train for 18 hours and you are hungry and you have paid for first-class service and food, someone ought to feed you!!

And if you are a person with special dietary needs, forget about it eating in the Cardinal.

I miss the old dining car on the old Cardinal -- the food was fantastic!!!!!!! Even if they could bring back the food at 1/2 the quality of the old dining car, it would still be 1,000 times better than what I had recently on the Cardinal.

-- Jackie


I've ridden The Cardinal over parts of the route on three different occasions and I'm finally glad to hear someone say, as I always do, that it is a terrible train.

The time I was in the sleeper (NYP - IND) I saw my car attendant twice, when I got on and when I got off.

Every time I've ridden the dinning car - not really a dinning car at all - was terrible. The food was terrible, the staff was terrible, the condition of the dining car and coaches were terrible. I enjoy the Illinois service trains more than The Cardinal. Heck - I enjoy the Michigan service more.

They really need to do something about it!

#55 Joel N. Weber II

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:59 PM

In a nutshell, you do not get what you pay for on the Cardinal with regard to food. If they run out of food, they should permit first-class passengers to have some type of credit toward use in the Cafe Car. I am sure there are 5,000 reasons why they can't (won't) do this, but honestly, when you have been on a train for 18 hours and you are hungry and you have paid for first-class service and food, someone ought to feed you!!


Actually, if you don't mind loaning Amtrak the cost of your cafe car food until your next trip and then dealing with the hassles of using a voucher to pay for your ticket, I would think in that situation if you paid for food in the cafe car and then called Amtrak after your trip and asked to speak with someone in Customer Relations, they'd probably send you a voucher good for future travel for your troubles; it might not be a bad idea to make a careful note of exactly how much money you paid for cafe food to make up for them not providing the food they were supposed to in the dining car.

Though they really ought to just get this right to begin with.

#56 Joel N. Weber II

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 08:01 PM

PS I like the idea of the Was and NYC sections.

I like the idea of the NYC section too, except that I think it should be a part of the Capitol Limited, splitting off at Pittsburgh, and not the Cardinal.


How tall would you make the train if you did that? Would you make it mixed Superliner and single level?

Edited by Joel N. Weber II, 17 February 2009 - 08:01 PM.


#57 Philly Amtrak Fan

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:20 PM

I stumbled on to this thread...

 

The problem with this train is that it is just too slow. No one wants to take the train from NY to Chicago in 28 hours. Also, the times from Cincinatti and Indianapolis are MUCH more than driving times... to a point where taking this train to the west from NY is not practical at all. Youre right though, the 3x per week schedule doesnt help at all.

 

 

 

 

Secondly, we could more honestly rename the Cardinal the Senator Byrd Special, since that is what it is. Amtrak doesn't want to run this train! This train is unpopular, serves practically nobody and those it serves are served at ridiculous hours of the day. Its like going from New York to Chicago via the Greenbriar. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is!

The train serves limited purpose. Amtrak would be better served by killing this train, yanking a sleeper off the Silver Meteor, and bringing back a two-sleeper, diner-lite, cafe, 5 coach Broadway Limited. That's how I'd improve its ridership- make it relevant.

 

 

So you thought I was the only one who thought this way?

 

To respond to the original question "How to boost Cardinal ridership" I will repeat ... serve Cincinnati and Indianapolis outside of the graveyard shift. Forget about the ability to transfer to the west coast, there's already the CL and LSL for that purpose. 


Trains Traveled: Broadway Limited (CHI-Harrisburg, PA), Three Rivers (Harrisburg, PA-CHI, Altoona, PA-CHI, PHL-CHI), Capitol Limited (CHI-WAS), Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI), , Silver Meteor (PHL-ORL), Southwest Chief (CHI-LAX), California Zephyr (CHI-SLC, SLC-EMY), City of New Orleans and/or Illini (CHI-Champaign, IL), Texas Eagle (CHI-DAL)
Bring back the Broadway Limited (or Three Rivers or any Chicago-Pittsburgh-Philly train)!
 
https://www.facebook...roadwayLimited/


#58 Ryan

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:49 PM

Congrats, you found two people from seven years ago that agree with you.

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#59 Thirdrail7

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 04:51 PM

I stumbled on to this thread...

 

The problem with this train is that it is just too slow. No one wants to take the train from NY to Chicago in 28 hours. Also, the times from Cincinatti and Indianapolis are MUCH more than driving times... to a point where taking this train to the west from NY is not practical at all. Youre right though, the 3x per week schedule doesnt help at all.

 

 

 


Secondly, we could more honestly rename the Cardinal the Senator Byrd Special, since that is what it is. Amtrak doesn't want to run this train! This train is unpopular, serves practically nobody and those it serves are served at ridiculous hours of the day. Its like going from New York to Chicago via the Greenbriar. Oh wait, that's exactly what it is!

The train serves limited purpose. Amtrak would be better served by killing this train, yanking a sleeper off the Silver Meteor, and bringing back a two-sleeper, diner-lite, cafe, 5 coach Broadway Limited. That's how I'd improve its ridership- make it relevant.

 

 

So you thought I was the only one who thought this way?

 

To respond to the original question "How to boost Cardinal ridership" I will repeat ... serve Cincinnati and Indianapolis outside of the graveyard shift. Forget about the ability to transfer to the west coast, there's already the CL and LSL for that purpose. 

 

 

No one stated that you were the only that thought this. You're just the only one that obsessively whines about it...even going as far as to bump a thread from 7 years ago to bolster your argument.

 

There's medicine for that, you know.


They say laughter is the best medicine. Obviously they never posted on AU.


#60 Dakota 400

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 07:28 PM

I would be more interested in using The Cardinal if Cincinnati's station would only provide long term parking.  Who wants to deal with the hassles and expense of getting a taxi to go to/from the station and a downtown parking garage given the times that the train arrives and leaves Cincinnati?  Not I!






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