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Amtrak Privatization Scenario


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#41 Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:48 PM

Step 1 - Unions

Bust the unions. I don't mind compensating employees well, but the work rules have to change, big time. Amtrak needs more flexibility in how to use the available employees.

Aloha

Before deciding to "Bust the Unions" how about defining the job of unions, and exploring the reasons they exist. With very few exceptions, Companies with Good Labor/Management do not have unions, Why? Companies with Difficult union relations probably result from management/labor relations with little honesty or respect.

You mentioned "work rule changes", What would you like to see changed, would you consider a similar change in your work rule?

Before deciding on success the Management/Union process, one must understand the goals and needs of both sides of an issue.



Hey GG-1.... very well said!
OBS gone freight...

#42 Kramerica

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 12:48 PM

Step 1 - Unions

Bust the unions. I don't mind compensating employees well, but the work rules have to change, big time. Amtrak needs more flexibility in how to use the available employees.

Aloha

Before deciding to "Bust the Unions" how about defining the job of unions, and exploring the reasons they exist. With very few exceptions, Companies with Good Labor/Management do not have unions, Why? Companies with Difficult union relations probably result from management/labor relations with little honesty or respect.

You mentioned "work rule changes", What would you like to see changed, would you consider a similar change in your work rule?

Before deciding on success the Management/Union process, one must understand the goals and needs of both sides of an issue.

I'm not backing down from my statement, but you're right in that I should have included "Bust the Management" as well. Management problems have been well-documented on this forum too. Both in terms of too many layers, and in terms of being ineffective. They cost money and reduce customer satisfaction.

A century ago, unions were needed because of the awful working conditions and hours. But now we have government regulations over workplace conditions, and there are so many more job options for people now, that if you don't like the hours, you can get a different job.

I would consider any change in my "work rules". That's because I don't have work rules. I'm an engineer (not of the train type, sorry!) and I've been hired to do engineering and I've got a set amount of pay. But in reality I do whatever my boss tells me I should do. For the most part I do engineering, but my duties include other stuff, like spare parts sales. And if I don't like it, I'm free to find another job.

So that's where I'm coming from about Amtrak employees. They've agreed to work certain shifts for a certain amount of pay with general expectations of what they'll be doing. But if their boss on the train tells them they need to do something different (as long as it is safe and within their skill set), they should do it. And if they don't like it, find another job.

In a perfect workplace, labor needs to be flexible to serve customers in an efficient manner, and management need to balance the needs of the workers and the customers. It appears that at Amtrak we have neither.

Here are some ideas for work rules changes, courtesy of AlanB:

There are many different work rule changes that Amtrak is seeking and quite honestly I'm not sure what they all are. However, one example is that currently Amtrak cannot call a sleeping car attendant in to work for example in the dining car as a waiter/waitress. That's considered a different craft. This hurts flexibility in scheduling and forces Amtrak to hire more people just to cover the schedules.

Oddly enough, the Autotrain operates under a different contract and there they can and do regularly swap jobs between coach attendant, dining car attendant, sleeping car attendant, and cafe attendant. This is one reason, although not the only reason that the AT does rather well financially. It still doesn't turn a profit, but it does come much closer than most of the other LD's.



#43 Amtrak OBS Gone Freight

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 01:32 PM

Step 1 - Unions

Bust the unions. I don't mind compensating employees well, but the work rules have to change, big time. Amtrak needs more flexibility in how to use the available employees.

Aloha

Before deciding to "Bust the Unions" how about defining the job of unions, and exploring the reasons they exist. With very few exceptions, Companies with Good Labor/Management do not have unions, Why? Companies with Difficult union relations probably result from management/labor relations with little honesty or respect.

You mentioned "work rule changes", What would you like to see changed, would you consider a similar change in your work rule?

Before deciding on success the Management/Union process, one must understand the goals and needs of both sides of an issue.

I'm not backing down from my statement, but you're right in that I should have included "Bust the Management" as well. Management problems have been well-documented on this forum too. Both in terms of too many layers, and in terms of being ineffective. They cost money and reduce customer satisfaction.

A century ago, unions were needed because of the awful working conditions and hours. But now we have government regulations over workplace conditions, and there are so many more job options for people now, that if you don't like the hours, you can get a different job.

I would consider any change in my "work rules". That's because I don't have work rules. I'm an engineer (not of the train type, sorry!) and I've been hired to do engineering and I've got a set amount of pay. But in reality I do whatever my boss tells me I should do. For the most part I do engineering, but my duties include other stuff, like spare parts sales. And if I don't like it, I'm free to find another job.

So that's where I'm coming from about Amtrak employees. They've agreed to work certain shifts for a certain amount of pay with general expectations of what they'll be doing. But if their boss on the train tells them they need to do something different (as long as it is safe and within their skill set), they should do it. And if they don't like it, find another job.

In a perfect workplace, labor needs to be flexible to serve customers in an efficient manner, and management need to balance the needs of the workers and the customers. It appears that at Amtrak we have neither.

Here are some ideas for work rules changes, courtesy of AlanB:

There are many different work rule changes that Amtrak is seeking and quite honestly I'm not sure what they all are. However, one example is that currently Amtrak cannot call a sleeping car attendant in to work for example in the dining car as a waiter/waitress. That's considered a different craft. This hurts flexibility in scheduling and forces Amtrak to hire more people just to cover the schedules.

Oddly enough, the Autotrain operates under a different contract and there they can and do regularly swap jobs between coach attendant, dining car attendant, sleeping car attendant, and cafe attendant. This is one reason, although not the only reason that the AT does rather well financially. It still doesn't turn a profit, but it does come much closer than most of the other LD's.


Well I have stayed quiet on this, but I am getting in on you now! Allow me to educate you on a few things. This example Alan points out is only partially true! It is true in the sense that Amtrak can't pull someone out of their current job to do another job! An employee holding a regular bulletined position has the right to hold that job and perform the duties within in it without worry of reassignment! And that is the way it should be everywhere! Now on the extra board, every effort is already made to have each employee qualified in the other crafts so they may be used with more flexibilty. So it is possible an employee can be called as a waiter/waitress for this trip, and on the next trip be called for the sleepers! If they are not qualified in that craft then they cannot be used. Amtrak knows this, and instructs each new employee in the OBS dept in all the crafts it can to qualify them. The employee also gets paid for the highest craft they work even if they work a lower wage craft unless they were hired after 2004. "Auto Train" on the other hand as Alan states, has a provison in their contract where even regular posted positions are swapped around depending on their rotation in the job cycle. And all that is fine and dandy because it has been agreed upon by Amtrak and the Union.

So this business you state of "busting the unions" as well as "busting the management" is a load crap (though there is room for some reform on both sides)! If it weren't for the unions, Amtrak would be paying close to minimum wage or around eight dollars per hour for the same if not more work placed on the employees! And in case you don't realize it, Amtrak employees (actually all agreement covered railroad employees) know they signed the agreement as outlined between the union and Amtrak (or another employer) pertaining to their employment. And I find most employees and management will follow the provisions in each contract in good faith with a few exceptions. And we cannot rely solely on the government to enforce their regulations!
So in closing I am sure your mind is set, but it is always easier for someone who is on the outside to make a judgment call or come up with all the answers! I'd like to see how you would handle it if you were one of us! If you really didn't like your current job, would you then do what it takes to find that new job you so freely say you can go find? I did. Amtrak furloughed me and I crossed over to the freight sector. It took a while, but it happened and I couldn't be happier. But I don't want to work in a non-unionized situation again unless I am working for myself! I see too much where the benefits help all parties involved in the long run (union, employees, and management). Even though I left Amtrak for better opportunity, I would still go back to them before I would ever take a different job which was non-unionized or which the conditions weren't stregnthen due to a past union's involvement!
OBS gone freight...

Edited by Amtrak OBS Gone Freight, 12 February 2008 - 01:40 PM.


#44 Galls

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 02:20 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?

#45 Kramerica

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 02:53 PM

Some good ideas here, but we have to figure out how to finance the whole thing.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on my ideas, or expanding upon them.

Financing - a 1 penny/gallon gas tax should do the trick. I'm a highway proponent too (actually I'm a transportation proponent - air, rail, sea, road), and I think improved Amtrak would be a boon for motorists as well. Less wear on our roads, fewer cars on the roads, less congestion. We cannot rely on one mode of transport. The more modes we have, the better our chance of having and using the right one for the particular situation.

#46 George Harris

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 03:27 PM

Concerning our "Bust the Union" guys: While I am not a big fan of Unions as they normally operate, they are a necessity in a lot of businesses. Otherwise conditions would approach slavery in the situation where they guy does not care whether the slave lives or not.

In most businesses and industires with strong unions, the strong unions were developed due to one primary factor: Bad Management.

I am sure that there are a lot of us here that could come up with numerous examples of bad, stupid, uncaring, and underhanded management without much effort. Dilbert management is all too real in many places. Sometimes inept and ignorant is much easier to deal with than the malicious character who is trying to prop up his buddies and deflect blame for his screw-ups on someone else.

Kramerica: You need to realize that, even ignoring "global warming" which I regard as more politics and a power grab than anything else, we are not going to keep being able to find and burn oil forever. Therefore, we have got to figure out methods that where ever people are moving in significant numbers to provide very low energy consuming methods of hauling them, and that means rail. In freight it is even more critical. We should in this country be doing our utmost to find methods of generating electricity that do not involve burning oil, gas, or coal and stringing wires over railroads. Both short haul flights and long haul trucking should be discouraged with an eye toward their ultimate elimination.

#47 AlanB

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 04:21 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)
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#48 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 04:58 PM

Both OBS gone Freight and Kramerica are right and wrong for different reasons. Unions make a lot of sense, assuming the employer is of the mind to justify the need for one. Unions are, however, also massive buearucratic monoliths, and as such are inherently inefficient. They cost money, time, and effort that has no effect, although they do have an effect. A good deal of the time, money, and effort spent on them accomplishes nothing more than cutting through red tape. A more efficient system ALWAYS runs without red tape, although efficiency is not always possible due to the selfish nature of human beings.
Travelled: Broadway Limited (1), Lake Shore Limited (5), Capitol Limited (7), Empire Builder (1), Southwest Chief (2), California Zephyr (2), Coast Starlight (1), Silver Meteor (5), Silver Star (5), Silver Palm (2), Cardinal (4), Auto Train (4), Pennsylvanian (2), Palmetto (1), Acela Express (1), Empire Service (1), Northeast Regional (10), Keystone Service (1) --- Total Miles: 42,878 --- Total Trains: 55
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#49 George Harris

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:03 PM

Both OBS gone Freight and Kramerica are right and wrong for different reasons. Unions make a lot of sense, assuming the employer is of the mind to justify the need for one. Unions are, however, also massive buearucratic monoliths, and as such are inherently inefficient. They cost money, time, and effort that has no effect, although they do have an effect. A good deal of the time, money, and effort spent on them accomplishes nothing more than cutting through red tape. A more efficient system ALWAYS runs without red tape, although efficiency is not always possible due to the selfish nature of human beings.

Exactly. Too many times you find that you have changed from dealing with the boss's incompetent friends and relatives to dealing with the union official's incometent friends and relatives, and the second class of no-counts seem to be harder to get rid of.

#50 Galls

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:11 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)

So besides the unpredictable schedule on the less than prompt long distance trains, how do the staff requirements for on board services differ from other hospitality jobs?

If there is no major difference and amtrak were allowed to hire at market rates, not union rates then their operating costs would be much, much lower.

#51 AlanB

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:30 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)

So besides the unpredictable schedule on the less than prompt long distance trains, how do the staff requirements for on board services differ from other hospitality jobs?

If there is no major difference and amtrak were allowed to hire at market rates, not union rates then their operating costs would be much, much lower.


This forum has dozens of topics comparing OBS jobs vs other jobs. Bottom line is that there is no fair comparision. Hotel maids are not required to provide meals to people occupying roooms. Most resturant workers don't have to work 17 hour days, much less contend with the bouncing train. When was the last time the cook in your local resturant had to cook while someone was shaking both the floor under him and the stove he was cooking on?

Are there similarities, sure. Making a bed is making a bed. But making a bed in a room the size of two phone booths can be an art in and of itself. Perhaps however the greatest difference between any OBS worker vs and worker in the hospitality industry, is that those workers go home each night to their families and their own beds.
Alan,

Take care and take trains!

#52 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:16 PM

I almost took a job with Conrail as a trainman. I really liked the work, and the pay (a lot more than I could have gotten elsewhere at the time) but the fact is, they can make you work 16 hours a day. (12 hours on, 8 hours off) I'd only be home to sleep and be out to work again. I have great respect for rail workers. Its a very hard job, and I don't think they are over paid by any means.

But there are probably millions of dollars of unneeded costs being spent on the Union's officials, their lawyers, Amtrak's unions liaisons, and Amtrak's union-related legal expenses that really would be a pretty nice savings. Given Amtrak's history, though, I don't know if they are responsible enough with their employees to be operating without a Union.
Travelled: Broadway Limited (1), Lake Shore Limited (5), Capitol Limited (7), Empire Builder (1), Southwest Chief (2), California Zephyr (2), Coast Starlight (1), Silver Meteor (5), Silver Star (5), Silver Palm (2), Cardinal (4), Auto Train (4), Pennsylvanian (2), Palmetto (1), Acela Express (1), Empire Service (1), Northeast Regional (10), Keystone Service (1) --- Total Miles: 42,878 --- Total Trains: 55
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#53 jackal

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:19 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)

So besides the unpredictable schedule on the less than prompt long distance trains, how do the staff requirements for on board services differ from other hospitality jobs?

If there is no major difference and amtrak were allowed to hire at market rates, not union rates then their operating costs would be much, much lower.


This forum has dozens of topics comparing OBS jobs vs other jobs. Bottom line is that there is no fair comparision. Hotel maids are not required to provide meals to people occupying roooms. Most resturant workers don't have to work 17 hour days, much less contend with the bouncing train. When was the last time the cook in your local resturant had to cook while someone was shaking both the floor under him and the stove he was cooking on?

Are there similarities, sure. Making a bed is making a bed. But making a bed in a room the size of two phone booths can be an art in and of itself. Perhaps however the greatest difference between any OBS worker vs and worker in the hospitality industry, is that those workers go home each night to their families and their own beds.

Having worked in a union as a brakeman on a railroad, I have to agree with Kramerica and Green Maned Lion. There were many stipulations in our union agreement that were very beneficial for the employees but, truthfully, weren't necessary.

One that came to mind was the penalty the railroad had to pay a yard crew if the yard crew was used outside of their terminal. We got an 8-hour straight time pay bonus if we set one foot south of a certain crossing about 45 miles south of the terminal. When dogcatching dead crews past this crossing, it was great for us, and I understand why it was negotiated (to keep the railroad from using lower-paid yard jobs on the normally higher-paying road jobs, although the difference was all of a couple bucks an hour), but was it really necessary?

Another that comes to mind would be the minimum crew requirements (brakeman required on freights longer than 5,280', brakeman and fireman on most passenger trains, fireman on passenger charters, etc.). These are good rules of thumb, but what is it about a magic number that makes an extra person necessary? What it resulted in is all freights being kept to under 5,280' to keep crew costs down but resulting in inefficiencies because of the need to run more trains or to delay shipments to customers until the next train.

I don't buy the argument that without the unions, work conditions would approach slavery. In today's world, there's too much freedom to leave. Yes, it might hurt a bit if you've got a lot of time invested in a career, but there are tons of blue-collar (and other) jobs that pay just as well as working on the railroad (and many offer better hours). If you don't like the working conditions, go work on construction or in the oilfields or in forestry or anything else.

And in the OBS world, yes, some of the jobs may be made more difficult by the tight quarters and movement, but in a market economy, Amtrak would be forced to pay more than the going rate for housecleaning, cooks, and waitstaff simply because of the working conditions--if they didn't, they'd lose their employees to hotels and restaurants that allow their staff to go home every night. And as far as AlanB's question of whether hotel maids were required to provide meals to people in their rooms--true, it's usually not the case at a normal hotel, but if a hotel owner wanted to make it a job requirement, he'd have every right to do so, and if the maid didn't like it, she'd be free to quit and go work at a hotel where it wasn't a job requirement.

Here's a real-world example. After dealing with a high turnover rate, my current employer in the service industry has finally learned that incentivizing the employees for their performance and providing them a decent pay has actually increased their profits, as we now have a solid team of reliable workers who are capable salespeople. It's much better than training new employees every few months. So, yes, some employers don't have the smartest and best management and it likely takes awhile to learn this lesson (and some employers do feel that the cost of hiring and training new employees is lower than keeping current ones--but that's a business owner's prerogative), but it can and does happen. And I much prefer the working environment here, where while we do have our share of complaints about the management, we're at least on the same team as them and don't have an us-versus-the-company mentality. (That was the mindset on the railroad: do whatever you can to *#$% the company out of its money.)

The only argument I've heard that might pass some muster is that unions are there to ensure the safety of the operation. They give the employees the ability to stand up and say that the working conditions are unsafe without fear of retribution. But in today's world, the company has just as much of an incentive to make working conditions safe (lower worker's comp costs, lower employee turnover costs, and reduced risk of lawsuits) as the employees do. And truthfully, most of the safety directives where I worked came from the railroad management, not the union contract, and the management did pride themselves on having a lower-than-industry-average rate of incidents. If you find the working conditions unsafe and don't feel you can speak up, well, there are other jobs out there. Maybe there weren't in the days of the Industrial Revolution when unions came to power, but in today's world, employers no longer have a stranglehold on the market. I've known too many people who were fed up with their jobs, or who had a dream to do something, and worked their butts off to attend night school or otherwise work their way through college--I myself have worked full-time and gone to school full-time, and it hasn't been easy--to support the victim mentality that you're stuck in your current job and your only hope for survival is a strong union to back you up.

I'm sorry to come off so harshly on this (I know I'm new to this board). I don't usually take such a strong stand on things. Let me soften it up a bit: I'm not saying that unions are bad. Unions can do good work, and I would agree that it makes for a happier society when people can stand up for what's right (especially in the face of bad or greedy management). And of course it's more pleasant when someone can stay in a job and build it into a well-paying career without being forced to constantly fear being out of work or having to look for other jobs, especially when the economy's in a bit of a downturn. But is that worth the high cost and low efficiency factor that unions generally create? Some of the negotiated terms are valid, but some of the other stipulations, such as not allowing an OBS worker to work a different craft, are ludicrous and obviously designed to protect jobs from being cut. Again, it's nice when someone knows that their job is secure, but honestly, if a train can run with three fewer workers (or whatever) and save a huge amount in staffing, why is that a bad idea? And if the train truly cannot run with three fewer employees without service going to heck in a handbasket, the company would be forced to put more on or risk upsetting the customers to the point they won't come back. (If Amtrak were a free-market enterprise, they'd be forced to do something or risk going out of business, at which point a competitor could take over their route structure or open up a new operation. I'm not an economist or even a business major, so I won't pretend to understand the economics of what could/would happen.)

All right, enough on this--I have a research paper to write. I'm sure there are lots of holes in my arguments that folks will be happy to point out... :P
Amtrak trains traveled: Acela Express, California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, Cardinal, Coast Starlight (and used to live next to its tracks!), Crescent, Empire Builder, Keystone, Northeast Regional, Pacific Surfliner, Pennsylvanian, San Joaquins...total mileage: 8,354 [massively out-of-date; to be updated soon!]
Other major trains traveled: Alaska Railroad (former TY&E employee), SNCF TGV (Paris-Poitiers, Paris-Dijon-Paris @300kph/187mph!) and TER (Beaune-Dijon), VR Sibelius (Helsinki-St. Petersburg-Helsinki), DB ICE (Stuttgart-Frankfurt Airport), Vietnam Railways Reunification Express (Hanoi-Hue-Saigon), CountryLink North Coast Line XPT (Sydney-Casino), Queensland Rail Sunlander (Brisbane-Proserpine-Cairns), Machu Picchu Train (Ollantaytambo-MP) subways/light rail/commuter rail/any other rail every place I can!
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#54 Galls

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:22 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)

So besides the unpredictable schedule on the less than prompt long distance trains, how do the staff requirements for on board services differ from other hospitality jobs?

If there is no major difference and amtrak were allowed to hire at market rates, not union rates then their operating costs would be much, much lower.


This forum has dozens of topics comparing OBS jobs vs other jobs. Bottom line is that there is no fair comparision. Hotel maids are not required to provide meals to people occupying roooms. Most resturant workers don't have to work 17 hour days, much less contend with the bouncing train. When was the last time the cook in your local resturant had to cook while someone was shaking both the floor under him and the stove he was cooking on?

Are there similarities, sure. Making a bed is making a bed. But making a bed in a room the size of two phone booths can be an art in and of itself. Perhaps however the greatest difference between any OBS worker vs and worker in the hospitality industry, is that those workers go home each night to their families and their own beds.


Yes but even that probably does not counter the internal and external equity that OBS actually has. I mean when I glanced over the 2007 audit it seems that amtrak is almost in as bad a situation as Detroit is. They are offering blue collar workers, what are now benefits only seen in white collar jobs.

#55 Green Maned Lion

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 10:29 PM

You know, I'm college educated. I graduated close to the top of my major (entrepreneurship), and more than one professor has told me I am the brightest student they have ever had. I could go for a white collar job, probably make six figures a year, and accomplish absolutely nothing with my life. I have more respect for one good blue collar worker than I have for an office full of white collar workers.

Maybe its because my best friend's dad was a private venture type who would take over companies and turn them around. And he showed me how much of people who are sitting in white collar jobs do almost nothing. I mean, there were people who were writing important reports for another department, who promptly would place them in file folders and file them diligently away in file drawers. Nobody knew what was in them in the department who got them because they never read them. My friend's dad fixed some of the problems of that company by canning and scrapping both departments. They had managers who did no work because the only thing they did was delegate work to the people they hired to do the work for them. Work that one person could easily do, and did do once the company was restructured.

Amtrak's OBS crew provides actual services to Amtrak passengers. Yeah, some are surly little jerks but most of them aren't. You just remember the bad ones more clearly. Freight workers do important jobs that are essential to the continued working of our economy, actually moving things other than sheets of paper from A to B. Carpenters build actual things. Autoworkers build cars.

Are there heavily overpaid people in the blue collar industry? No crap. But I have yet to see a blue collar worker half as overpaid as most so-called "middle management". They are so overpaid they are getting a paycheck for an actual productivity value of zero. The essential concept, belief, and sentiment that a blue collar worker making the same as a white collar worker is wrong pisses me off to no end.
Travelled: Broadway Limited (1), Lake Shore Limited (5), Capitol Limited (7), Empire Builder (1), Southwest Chief (2), California Zephyr (2), Coast Starlight (1), Silver Meteor (5), Silver Star (5), Silver Palm (2), Cardinal (4), Auto Train (4), Pennsylvanian (2), Palmetto (1), Acela Express (1), Empire Service (1), Northeast Regional (10), Keystone Service (1) --- Total Miles: 42,878 --- Total Trains: 55
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#56 AlanB

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 10:48 PM

I am assuming that OBS means on board services?


Correct. :)

So besides the unpredictable schedule on the less than prompt long distance trains, how do the staff requirements for on board services differ from other hospitality jobs?

If there is no major difference and amtrak were allowed to hire at market rates, not union rates then their operating costs would be much, much lower.


This forum has dozens of topics comparing OBS jobs vs other jobs. Bottom line is that there is no fair comparision. Hotel maids are not required to provide meals to people occupying roooms. Most resturant workers don't have to work 17 hour days, much less contend with the bouncing train. When was the last time the cook in your local resturant had to cook while someone was shaking both the floor under him and the stove he was cooking on?

Are there similarities, sure. Making a bed is making a bed. But making a bed in a room the size of two phone booths can be an art in and of itself. Perhaps however the greatest difference between any OBS worker vs and worker in the hospitality industry, is that those workers go home each night to their families and their own beds.


Yes but even that probably does not counter the internal and external equity that OBS actually has. I mean when I glanced over the 2007 audit it seems that amtrak is almost in as bad a situation as Detroit is. They are offering blue collar workers, what are now benefits only seen in white collar jobs.


Well remember that only now, 8 years later, are Amtrak and the unions close to a new contract. That means that things haven't kept pace with the current trends in the market place. And in fact more than one person has suggested that the Amtrak workers may actually have been better off without real raises (they've only received cost of living raises), since they all still get fully paid medical benefits and other things that most other workers and unions no longer get.

But again, that doesn't change the fact that most (although not all) OBS workers do work harder and far longer hours than the average worker in a semi-comparable job. Union or not, Amtrak would have no choice but to pay these workers a higher salary than they could get elsewhere working in a semi-related job off the rails. If Amtrak didn't, then they wouldn't have any workers, as no one would subject themselves to the harder job if the rewards (salary or otherwise) weren't there.
Alan,

Take care and take trains!

#57 Galls

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:18 PM

Well remember that only now, 8 years later, are Amtrak and the unions close to a new contract. That means that things haven't kept pace with the current trends in the market place. And in fact more than one person has suggested that the Amtrak workers may actually have been better off without real raises (they've only received cost of living raises), since they all still get fully paid medical benefits and other things that most other workers and unions no longer get.

But again, that doesn't change the fact that most (although not all) OBS workers do work harder and far longer hours than the average worker in a semi-comparable job. Union or not, Amtrak would have no choice but to pay these workers a higher salary than they could get elsewhere working in a semi-related job off the rails. If Amtrak didn't, then they wouldn't have any workers, as no one would subject themselves to the harder job if the rewards (salary or otherwise) weren't there.


While

Besides on corridor operations, where 4 hours out and 4 hours back is possible, I do agree with you just not to the extent which they are currently compensated.

If an ideal intercity rail in this country ever came into existence, frequency and reliability began to exist on mid and long distance trains it would be wise of amtrak to use a trains mobility to their advantage. Instead of operating crews out of high living cost areas they could base their crew out of the cheaper living locations along a route. If franchising where to ever happen you can bet this would be a principle cost cutter.

#58 AlanB

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:40 PM

Well remember that only now, 8 years later, are Amtrak and the unions close to a new contract. That means that things haven't kept pace with the current trends in the market place. And in fact more than one person has suggested that the Amtrak workers may actually have been better off without real raises (they've only received cost of living raises), since they all still get fully paid medical benefits and other things that most other workers and unions no longer get.

But again, that doesn't change the fact that most (although not all) OBS workers do work harder and far longer hours than the average worker in a semi-comparable job. Union or not, Amtrak would have no choice but to pay these workers a higher salary than they could get elsewhere working in a semi-related job off the rails. If Amtrak didn't, then they wouldn't have any workers, as no one would subject themselves to the harder job if the rewards (salary or otherwise) weren't there.


While

Besides on corridor operations, where 4 hours out and 4 hours back is possible, I do agree with you just not to the extent which they are currently compensated.

If an ideal intercity rail in this country ever came into existence, frequency and reliability began to exist on mid and long distance trains it would be wise of amtrak to use a trains mobility to their advantage. Instead of operating crews out of high living cost areas they could base their crew out of the cheaper living locations along a route. If franchising where to ever happen you can bet this would be a principle cost cutter.


First, I had always believed that we were talking about long distance obs and that is what I've been basing my statements on, not corridor obs.

Second, corridor obs are vastly different than LD obs.

Three, OBS references On Board Service people. They are the workers who run cafe cars, dining cars, and the sleepers. OBS does not include conductors or engineers.

Fourth, with some exceptions (namly Acela), corridor obs typically see only one OBS worker. So the cost is considerably less than the OBS costs of a LD train.

Fifth, staffing a train from mid-point will never work since you'd have to transport the people from their "living location" to the start of their work location. Airlines don't change flight attendants halfway through the flight, cruise ships don't pick up new workers off the various islands/ports that they stop at. Travelers expect that the service crew remains constant through out the journey.

Sixth, franchising will never happen since running trains was never profitable, still isn't profitable, and never will be profitable. The only way someone other than Amtrak will run passenger service, is if they are guaranteed not to loose money doing so. And that means subsidies.
Alan,

Take care and take trains!

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 12:22 AM

Alan,

"running trains was never profitable"

I'm not trying to be picky here, but don't you think that passenger trains have made money at some point in their history?

#60 jackal

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 12:27 AM

Three, OBS references On Board Service people. They are the workers who run cafe cars, dining cars, and the sleepers. OBS does not include conductors or engineers.

Don't know if this was directed at me or GML or someone else, but I was referring to operating crews specifically because that's where my experience in a union was. There is a difference between blue-collar train crews and service-industry OBS staff, but my points should be transferable between them.

Fifth, staffing a train from mid-point will never work since you'd have to transport the people from their "living location" to the start of their work location. Airlines don't change flight attendants halfway through the flight, cruise ships don't pick up new workers off the various islands/ports that they stop at. Travelers expect that the service crew remains constant through out the journey.

True, except that trains change their operating crews several times on each LD route and have no problem doing that. I wouldn't expect the service crew to remain constant: if I got a new car attendant or cafe attendant, I'd be just fine with that, as long as any concerns or requests I'd made were passed on in a crew briefing (like a relacement train crew does a briefing with the outgoing one and/or with the dispatcher).

This is not directed at GML specifically, as I do agree that it's wrong to insinuate that blue-collar workers are somehow less than white-collar middle-management, but I did want to make one comment:

I know it doesn't seem fair to most people that a hard-working janitor or hotel maid can be paid so little while white-collar, college-educated management is paid so much, and I don't necessarily believe that Fortune 500 CEOs are often worth the millions they pay themselves, but the truth is that anyone who's desperate for a job can go to these entry-level, minimum-wage jobs while it takes special talent to cast a vision to run a company effectively. I've been a janitor, a blue-collar laborer, and a middle manager (in a very small company in the service industry--honestly, my job would likely fall into the category your dad would can, but hey, the job was handed to me), and I know several visionary executive-types personally, and I have to say that they're worth their salt (though none of the ones I know makes millions). Although I don't know him, Jim Sinegal of Costco is a great example of a visionary guy and an effective leader who has the humility to draw a fairly small (for a company his size) salary but one that provides a perfectly fine standard of living. But it's precisely those qualities that make him such a good leader and Costco such a well-run company--the greedy executives of the Enrons and Tycos will eventually fall. Just knowing how screwed up government bureaucracy can be, I just can't support government regulating what people are paid. Unions aren't much better. But if a union could negotiate contracts fairly for both the employes and the company and without creating a employee-versus-company mentality, I might have less of a problem with unions. Unfortunately, they're selfish and only look out for their own, to the downfall of the company itself, which ends up hurting the employees by putting them out of work (union contracts with defunct companies do no good). That's the problem I have with unions, not that the workers themselves are not worth it.

Edited by jackal, 13 February 2008 - 12:30 AM.

Amtrak trains traveled: Acela Express, California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, Cardinal, Coast Starlight (and used to live next to its tracks!), Crescent, Empire Builder, Keystone, Northeast Regional, Pacific Surfliner, Pennsylvanian, San Joaquins...total mileage: 8,354 [massively out-of-date; to be updated soon!]
Other major trains traveled: Alaska Railroad (former TY&E employee), SNCF TGV (Paris-Poitiers, Paris-Dijon-Paris @300kph/187mph!) and TER (Beaune-Dijon), VR Sibelius (Helsinki-St. Petersburg-Helsinki), DB ICE (Stuttgart-Frankfurt Airport), Vietnam Railways Reunification Express (Hanoi-Hue-Saigon), CountryLink North Coast Line XPT (Sydney-Casino), Queensland Rail Sunlander (Brisbane-Proserpine-Cairns), Machu Picchu Train (Ollantaytambo-MP) subways/light rail/commuter rail/any other rail every place I can!
Coast Starlight trip report with Pacific Parlour Car dining menu
How Amtrak fare buckets and on-board upgrades work (a work in progress)



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